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Old 07-14-2013, 01:09 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

Someone school me on building a naturally aspirated miata engine, 160-170whp. Is it going to be reasonable? or would it be better just go to with FI? I'm not exactly sure where to start, my engine is bone stock at this point. It is my DD so i would prefer to keep it as reliable as possible, first miata so not exactly sure where power gains are at really. Thanks for any help, it's much appreciated!
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

My 172whp N/A Engine. Stock bottom end. No Porting.
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:53 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

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My 172whp N/A Engine. Stock bottom end. No Porting.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:20 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

Its real easy. VVT engine, header, 2.5" exhaust, stand alone, flat top manifold, custom intake, e85.
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Old 07-15-2013, 08:53 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

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Its real easy. VVT engine, header, 2.5" exhaust, stand alone, flat top manifold, custom intake, e85.
This. You don't need to build anything.

Then you're ready for ITB's at that point.
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Old 07-15-2013, 10:56 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

Sorry but what's a flat top manifold? And could something reasonable be achieved without e85? I was really trying to avoid itbs due to cost.

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Old 07-15-2013, 10:57 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

Oh and vvt engine? Could I throw on a vvt head and call it good? I already have a 1.8 right now bone stock good compression however high miles.

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Old 07-15-2013, 11:10 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

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Its real easy. VVT engine, header, 2.5" exhaust, stand alone, flat top manifold, custom intake, e85.
has this been documented to hit 170 whp?
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:19 AM   #9 (permalink)
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has this been documented to hit 170 whp?
Even up to 180, with a "stock" rebuild. It would hit 150-160 on 93.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:50 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

Bullshit. But go ahead and try.
Leafy is describing just about every European NB around here and they hit 130-140whp if they are lucky. 140 if its an optimistic dyno.

The real trick is in the "stock rebuild", which implies dumping thousands into a carefully massaged, lightened, blueprinted and optimized cheater engine.

VVT system adds nothing up top and shares its port geometry with the 99-00. Its just the fanboi engine choice of the moment.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:55 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Bullshit. But go ahead and try.
Leafy is describing just about every European NB around here and they hit 130-140whp if they are lucky. 140 if its an optimistic dyno.

The real trick is in the "stock rebuild", which implies dumping thousands into a carefully massaged, lightened, blueprinted and optimized cheater engine.

VVT system adds nothing up top and shares its port geometry with the 99-00. Its just the fanboi engine choice of the moment.
VVT makes better mid range, because of the VVT. It also has a more aggressive intake cam so it should make more up top. Of course, you got to have some nuts to rev it in the area around 7400 with stock valve springs.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:56 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

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Old 07-15-2013, 12:17 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

What Leafy is talking about is adding e85 and a standalone.

Right there IMO is good enough to do it... Granted, you have to have a good tune as well.
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:22 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

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VVT makes better mid range, because of the VVT. It also has a more aggressive intake cam so it should make more up top. Of course, you got to have some nuts to rev it in the area around 7400 with stock valve springs.
We we're talking peak hp.

The intake cam is similar to either the BP5A (stock here) or exhintake cams. Less duration, tiny bit more lift. The Flattop+JDM ECU + JDM exhaust manifold cars ALL make about 5hp less then our '99 cars. Remember we dyno the flattop etc stock cars here in VERY large groups during club-days etc. They all show the same pattern.

Maxim-works or mazdaspeed manifolds are pretty easy to source 2nd hand here.
Flattop manifolds are 50$ from the wreckers or you already have one on the car stock.
Mix of 10:1 and 10.5:1 compression pistons (many imports).
Everyone runs 60mm ID exhausts
Megasquirts are popular.

Yet everytime someone puts together the US-dream spec package, the dyno reads about 20-30whp less then what you read about on the net.
Take a look at Reverants build; Leafy spec engine and management, 150crank hp (125whp). Must be a problem with his tuning skills.
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

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We we're talking peak hp.

The intake cam is similar to either the BP5A (stock here) or exhintake cams. Less duration, tiny bit more lift. The Flattop+JDM ECU + JDM exhaust manifold cars ALL make about 5hp less then the '99 cars.

Maxim-works or mazdaspeed manifolds are pretty easy to source 2nd hand here.
Flattop manifolds are 50$ from the wreckers.
Everyone runs 60mm ID exhausts
Megasquirts are popular.

Yet everytime someone puts together the US-dream spec package, the dyno reads about 20-30whp less then what you read about on the net.
Take a look at Reverants build; Leafy spec engine and management, 150crank hp (125whp or less). Must be a problem with his tuning skills.
Rev is on 93. Like I said, on 93 that build will do 150-160 depending on where on the allowed factory tolerances the engine falls (with a "stock" rebuild being with all of them on the good end). Adding e85 will get that same engine up to 170-180.
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:33 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

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Rev is on 93. Like I said, on 93 that build will do 150-160 depending on where on the allowed factory tolerances the engine falls (with a "stock" rebuild being with all of them on the good end). Adding e85 will get that same engine up to 170-180.
But I'm assuming that you are talking wheel hp. Rev makes 150 Crank hp. Where are the 25 horses he (and every other VVT NB around here) is missing?
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:37 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

You're saying he only makes 125 whp? Thats what 99+ miatas make with stock intake manifolds, and bolt ons without the tune or flatop.
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:56 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

Yup.

Well 150-155 crank hp.

Gain of around 15hp from stock. (but remember that we start with the coveted flat tops and tubular mani's).

170whp is just shy of 200 crank hp. A FULL 60hp over the already inflated stock mazda numbers. You are kidding yourself if you expect to see that from an exhaust and intake (plus tune to match). Its funny really.
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:13 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

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Yup.

Well 150-155 crank hp.

Gain of around 15hp from stock. (but remember that we start with the coveted flat tops and tubular mani's).

170whp is just shy of 200 crank hp. A FULL 60hp over the already inflated stock mazda numbers. You are kidding yourself if you expect to see that from an exhaust and intake (plus tune to match). Its funny really.
WITH MUTHA FUCKING E85.
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:25 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

Just go with Quinn's set-up, it's been proven that his specs work.
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Old 07-15-2013, 01:31 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Just go with Quinn's set-up, it's been proven that his specs work.
But quin's miata will only make 150hp if you dyno it in Europe.
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:10 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

Bullshit leafy, cam's+compression+ITB's are not part of your fantasy world setup. And E85 will not make up the difference. Unless you go to the Church automotive or similar "happy" dyno
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Old 07-15-2013, 02:24 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...1&postcount=24

"150whp is bolt-ons and a good tune. Above that you need to go into the motor.
160-165whp is just a little bowl work and compression.
170whp requires more substantial head work or mild cams or lots of compression, pick one.
185whp requires mild cams (still streetable in a VVT), compression, porting. Pick two.
195whp full head work, lots of compression and mild to medium race cams.
205whp+ is pretty much a full race engine with cams that would probably never idle for street use.
225whp+ so and the life expectancy begins to shorten. Perhaps 15-30 race hrs and you're looking at a $15-20K long block.

We have just touched 180whp on stock cams with an NB2 motor but it was not cheap. Based on the data from that experiment, I know 190whp on stock cams is possible with IRTB's, more compression and E85. At that point however, you should just feed it the cams it wants. We played with stock cams to gain a higher BFSC for endurance racing.

For most guys, I think a stock-ish cam NB2 build makes the most sense. Run as much compression as your fuel will stand, get the best ECU you can, build a Honda B series manifold grafted onto the Mazda flange, RB/Maruha/Maxim works header, fully port and polish the head. Forged everything, SUB's and heavier valve springs. That should net and easy 175whp or so, be safe to 8000rpm sustained, idle like a stocker and last 100 race hours."
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Old 07-16-2013, 02:04 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: Building an N/A 1.8 NB Miata

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Originally Posted by doward View Post
http://forum.miata.net/vb/showpost.p...1&postcount=24

"150whp is bolt-ons and a good tune. Above that you need to go into the motor.
160-165whp is just a little bowl work and compression.
170whp requires more substantial head work or mild cams or lots of compression, pick one.
185whp requires mild cams (still streetable in a VVT), compression, porting. Pick two.
195whp full head work, lots of compression and mild to medium race cams.
205whp+ is pretty much a full race engine with cams that would probably never idle for street use.
225whp+ so and the life expectancy begins to shorten. Perhaps 15-30 race hrs and you're looking at a $15-20K long block.

We have just touched 180whp on stock cams with an NB2 motor but it was not cheap. Based on the data from that experiment, I know 190whp on stock cams is possible with IRTB's, more compression and E85. At that point however, you should just feed it the cams it wants. We played with stock cams to gain a higher BFSC for endurance racing.

For most guys, I think a stock-ish cam NB2 build makes the most sense. Run as much compression as your fuel will stand, get the best ECU you can, build a Honda B series manifold grafted onto the Mazda flange, RB/Maruha/Maxim works header, fully port and polish the head. Forged everything, SUB's and heavier valve springs. That should net and easy 175whp or so, be safe to 8000rpm sustained, idle like a stocker and last 100 race hours."
Love it! Also loving the discussion going on, giving me alot of input from what seems to be seasoned veterans for miatas. Keep it going guys! Thanks alot

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