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Old 11-28-2009, 07:03 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

Simple question.

How much power can you get from a naturally aspirated 1.6 motor and what parts would you recommend?

Also, who builds motors like that?

Another question would be how could you easily up the power on a stock 1.6 - what are the best mods taht give the most returns?


Need to know because I have a Miata race car project on my hands and the class limits engine displacement to 1.6l. Can make up some time on chassis mods but need to figure out how to hurt less for power!
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Old 11-28-2009, 07:21 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

some1 is trying to prove to us that he can make 300whp with only 3k... doubt that's going to happen though.

for the street though, turbo/sc is the best way to gain power while being 'legal'. haig's jackson racing set-up is putting him at 160 wheel, while still having a Carb sticker to keep the cops happy.

for a race only set-up... i think Maruha has a 1.6 at the high 190PS NA set-up. im not sure...

but u can always do this
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Old 11-28-2009, 07:57 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

Yeah my game is that I NEED to be 1.6 litres, NEED to be NA and NEED to run a four banger. The rules for the UAE Touring Car Championship (which is where this car's gonna run) are pretty tight like that.

My kryptonite will be dudes who show up with build B16s motors in stripped out Civics - argh!

Will have a poke around and see what I dan find about vis a vis Maruha motors - Google Translate *activate* Lolz
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Old 11-28-2009, 09:53 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

I think you're going to have to consider not using a Mazda engine unless your development budget is massive. Consider that your competition is going to be B16's, 4AGE's and Mivec's. I wouldn't start with the B6 no matter how much I love MX5's.
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Old 11-28-2009, 10:13 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

BeeSixteenBee swap!

That or just lighten the shizz out of the bottom end, up the compression, IRTBs, headwork to rev to 9k, and just hope that your lightweight, 4 wheel double wishbone, 50/50 weight distribution, RWD set up will be faster in the corners than the other fools on the track to make up for your HP disadvantage.
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Old 11-28-2009, 10:26 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

I'm limited to engines form the same manufacturer of the same engine type/configuration so yep, that's pretty much the end of engine swaps really and therefore yes, a built 1.6 BP is what I'd be looking at here. Just a rules thing.

I know ALOT can be done to the chassis, as well as in terms of weight reduction, so not worried about that. Critical thing is to find out roughly how much power you can reliably get out of a 1.6 and who can build it?

Or, as you put it earlier; inimize the power gap as much as possible and bank on handling and reliability to win the day.


Noticed that SCCA Champ Jerry Prather's E Produciton Miata, for example, is supposed to be making around 180hp...which would be quite nice for a start.

http://www.distributorless.com/media/rides02.php

Just curious about more sources for the built motor stuff - unfortunately it's looking like a built, high compression motor with some pretty sick cams and headwork would be the way to go when the B16s come to play. Need to find some leads for who can build mills like that.

Always curious for info!
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Last edited by theshadow; 11-28-2009 at 11:18 AM.
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Old 11-28-2009, 11:29 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

PS - that vid above is SICK!
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Old 11-28-2009, 12:25 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

Can you run IRTBs?
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Old 11-28-2009, 12:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

My production sportscars 2F NA8 is 1840cc and make sjust under 170RWHP or 205hp at the fly. The spec of our engine is about 2 years old now though and the latest engines from the same guy are reportedly making 220 to 225hp at the fly. This is without ITB's as we have to keep the standard intake manifold for 2F. Thats an expensive engine built by a guy that has been building race BP's for many many years so knows where the gains are to be made. If you were to spend the same on a Honda B18 you would have a lot more power. The same would go for B6 vs B16 engines.

BUT

Whenever I'm on the track and whether it's a trackday or raceday, whether i'm in my old corolla or my racecar it's always a blast and I'm havin fun. I know I don't have the budget to be up at the pointy end but there's plenty of other cars around my pace so I've always got someone to dice with. Just make sure you build it with reliability in mind because going for the extra 10hp but only finishing 1/2 your races would suck. I guess my point is get out there on track and have fun and start a build thread and let us know how you go.

Cheers,
Julian.

PS. Has anyone here tried water injection in a high compression NA build?
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Old 11-28-2009, 01:01 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

i say if you wont some one to build you a engine. i would go with a flyin miata built 1.6 engine. then take your favriot IRTBs and header and worry about keeping a trans.
http://www.flyinmiata.com/index.php?...umber=04-01000
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Old 11-28-2009, 03:26 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

+1 on the FM build with ITBs & header.

Just remember. Power makes you fast in some places, light weight makes you faster everywhere.
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Old 11-28-2009, 05:20 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

Chassis-wide, the regs would actually let me run something similar to Matt Andrews' time attack car, albeit with a 1.6 NA B6 engine instead of his turbo'ed monster.

Yes, we can run IRTBs - pretty much ALL the Honda guys in the 2.0l and 1.6l classes do. They tend to build the engines right to the limit though, with very aggressive cams etc., so they often run into reliability issues and tend to DNF alot.

It's looking like a 1.6 with reinforced internals, high compression pistons, cams and some pretty serious headwork + standalone is the way to go. IRTBs would be nice but they're not cheap; will have to consider that one carefully.

Definitely agree with the above posters that it's better to finish well all the time than to win once and go up in flames for a few races; it's all about the championship and ultimately, since I'm not paying for it myself, it's all about having some fun too

At least the FM engines are proven to e good quaity; am currently looking for some pro builders who would be able to build the whole car themselves, leaving me just to clean up a few details here and there.

If it comes together, it'll likely be alot like a hybrid of a time attack/PTE/F production type car. Could be interesting. And would definitely make my stockish NA6 daily feel pretty jealous.
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:03 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

Sounds like a cool claass to race in!

What conversion factor do they have for rotaries in that class? Seems the norm is 1.8 which would not work out...
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Old 11-28-2009, 06:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

^ No conversion factor for rotaries per say, unless it's turbocharged in which case the conversion factor is 1.7, meaning that your converted displacement (assuming a 1.3l rotary) would be 2.21 liters. For us that'd mean that you'd run in Class 1 with the SEAT Touring Cars.


Yes, I thought of a rotary swap but even though it would be a mazda to mazda (same manufacturer) swap the rules also require that the 'configuration' of the engine be the same; i.e. no 4 banger to rotary swaps, or 4 banger to V8 swaps allowed etc.

Of course having said that, pretty much any naturally aspirated RX7 or RX8 could theoretically clean up in Class 3 (1.6 liters or less). Heck, might even have a shot in Class 2 (2 litres or less).

But even if that did happen, there's always "at the drscretion of the organizers" or "in the spirit of the championship" clauses here and there in the regulations that could see you bumped up or bumped out.
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Old 11-29-2009, 02:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

I'd imagine you'd want to have a look at winkyl's build if you haven't already. Aside from the overbore, it's similar to what you'd be able to do with a B6:

http://www.clubroadster.net/vb_forum...ad.php?t=18582
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Old 11-29-2009, 03:19 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

Sounds like fun, be sure to keep us updated.
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Old 11-29-2009, 04:37 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000hp
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Old 11-30-2009, 07:16 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

oh wow - winkyl's build is quite epic.

150whp - not bad! And not cheap!

Am talking to a few Miata race car builders so see what they can come up with...some are claiming that 200whp isn't a problem!

We shall see.
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Old 12-01-2009, 01:38 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

200 NA hp out of a motor with a head that flows worse the a stock 289CI ford iorn head from the early 60s? hummmm...
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Old 12-01-2009, 05:55 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

Does anyone have the flow stats for the B6 and BP heads? I'm starting to think I chose the wrong platform to work on...
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Old 12-02-2009, 01:40 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

get in contact with emilio from 949 racing. i heard him tell me the numbers once but i forgot. either way they are quite low... below 300 cfm. the angle of the ports being the limiting factor, not the realy the size.
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Old 12-02-2009, 06:31 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

On solomiata.com it states that a stock 94 head should 174 cfm. Don't know about the earlier heads, they should flow less though.
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Old 12-02-2009, 06:40 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

there was a guy from Australia i believe who got somewhere to around 140 whp from a b6 with exhaust work, big cams and tuning and no other mods if i remember correctly..

hmmm i cant remember his sn
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Old 12-05-2009, 05:52 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

I was talking to jerry prather about building the car...that dude is a mutiple time SCCA E and F production champion which basically means he knows his stuff.

Anyways, not only form him but frim checking around, seems that 150 at the engine is pretty easy with basic mods - high compression/lighter pistons, stronger rods, headwork, cams, reworked head, headers and exhaust, MAFless intake and a standalone + tune.

Apparently possible to go well above that with bigger throttle bodies, injectors, extreme headwork, super high compression pistons, wild cams and such.

As usual, money is the main limiting factor.

And in my case, the scrutineer/technical director of the race series just told me this weekend that they 'decided after so,e committee deliberation' that they won't allow Miatas in the category after all (for being 2 seater sports cars).

Damn I was pissed.

But oh well fuggit, even if I'm not racing I've got it in my head that I want a built engine! Gah!
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Old 12-06-2009, 04:12 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

sucks that they won't even let you out to play.

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Old 12-06-2009, 07:39 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

Try starting with a 1.8 and destroking it to a 1.6

You'll get much better results.
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Old 12-06-2009, 10:39 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

Quote:
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On solomiata.com it states that a stock 94 head should 174 cfm. Don't know about the earlier heads, they should flow less though.
I just looked through it and it is about 174cfm for the 1.6l. The 1.8 flows 220ish cfm which is almost on par with SR20 and KA24 heads. I think I'll manage
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Old 12-06-2009, 04:25 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

^ useful info actually
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Old 12-06-2009, 05:41 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

the supercharger I just threw in pretty much feels like the car when it was still N/A, but on some steroids...or maybe more like protein powder.

But yea, just sayin...the power delivery is more or less the same, just more all around. The throttle response is maybe a tiny bit slower just cause I don't have a variable TPS...but it's a dope way to do it for cheapzies.
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Old 12-06-2009, 06:32 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: How much power can you make from a naturally aspirated 1.6?

Quote:
Originally Posted by theshadow View Post

It's looking like a 1.6 with reinforced internals, high compression pistons, cams and some pretty serious headwork + standalone is the way to go. IRTBs would be nice but they're not cheap; will have to consider that one carefully.
From what it sounds like you're planning to do.. cheap shouldn't be in your vocabulary.
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