Edough

I was just youtoob surfing and came across this...

edit. VIDS BELOW. ty

and then to a bunch more BTCC vids of Plato vs someone, involving a ton of bumpin'.

Really really exciting to watch, though it would really help if I knew the rules, strategies, whats allowed, car setup, anything, etc. Help? Feel free to post other exciting videos

brontosaurus

Fixed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...ar_Regulations

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simpl

you mean rules with passing?

technically you're not supposed to be hitting each other all over the place, but "shit happens". If it was unintentional then they let it slide, if it was obviously intentional you will be black flagged off the track or if it was considered "avoidable contact" you can be penalized in one of many ways, for example a stop and go penalty where you have to go into your pit, stop for X amount of seconds then you may re-enter the race

Edough

^ just anything regarding racing in general. I've watched racing before, but I've never really understood anything about it (so its hard to appreciate; but I'd like to be able to, from the racing strategy, to the engineering), but I knew enough to know there's a lot to it. Is BTCC the shit too watch?

simpl

wow, pretty hard to explain the wholllle spectrum. Different series call for different rules regarding chassis, power, motor, suspension, tires, wheels, weight etc etc etc etc...it could go on forever. Some series have pit stops which play a HUGE role in strategy..some series have shorter road course sprints where if you pit..you pretty much lost. Some series have multiple classes all running at the same time such as Rolex series, ALMS, Speed GT, Continental tire challenge etc etc.

Racing season is ending soon, but you can catch a few more F1 races and Indy Car races i think.

nannerpus

Uh.

That's one of the broadest questions I've ever read.

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simpl

LOL, tell me about it... I tried, but I have no real idea where to begin and what of the insane amount of aspects to include... it took me years!

Edough

haha, I'm not saying teach me everything. Just looking for little interesting pieces of knowledge, even something as small as "why are race cars so hard to start up after they go off track".

simpl

The motors kill the battery due to the high abuse of a race car. Most formula cars and a number of other cars actually need a battery jumper to start them. If you watch an F1 race, you'll see them when they start their engines..

...i think i'm right lol

XSNRGE

Well think about it... They have high-performance engines, usually higher compression than anything you would be able to run on the streets. They're not meant to idle, they're meant to provide power and reliability while being pushed to the higher limits of their rev-range.

Once warmed up and heated to their operating temperatures, which I'm sure would probably give people heatstrokes if they drove past you while you were standing on the sidewalk, they'd probably have so much heat built up that fuel may just want to vapor-lock and the car won't want to start until it's given some time to cool.

That's my theory, but I have no clue why you wouldn't just be able to put two-and-two together :/

Realistically, if you have any real mechanical experience or aptitude, it shouldn't be too difficult to come to a general conclusion as to how cars work :S

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simpl

It also has a little to do with the close tolerances within the motor that makes it hard to start. Our Dart "hi-rev" motor in our southwest tour car can be a total bitch to start, but the 385 fastburn in our old ASC car (which is basically a readily available crate motor from Chevy) started up easy as pie every time.

brontosaurus

Sounds like you haven't a clue either. F1 cars run only slightly hotter than regular cars (probably because the Carnot cycle dictates that a hotter engine is more efficient+fluids can be pumped slower due to higher deltaT>higher Q in the radiator). Also vapor lock with EFI lololol, really?

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Friday

Well BTCC isn't like most racing. In fact a lot of touring car racing has quite a bit of bumping around. Closed wheel cars that are all performing on similar levels + hyper competitive pro drivers who want to win more than anything can make for quite a lot of bumping around.

The race officials can decide if stuff like that is legal, and most times it just goes down to the fact that racing is racing and shit happens.

On the topic of stalling and having trouble getting started. Once these cars are going they are not really planning on stalling them out. Starters and batteries in race cars are made to be as light as possible, and that can make them less than ideal for starting a car up after a stall out. Also, even with regular cars rapid spinning can cause a car to stall and sometimes it takes a minute before it wants to start up.

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nannerpus

Er uh, also, many purpose-built race cars, typically open-wheel, don't have onboard starter motors. If they stall, they're boned.

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Edough

Coooool.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOjpH...eature=related

"At its most basic purpose, left-foot braking can be used to decrease the time spent between the right foot moving between the brake and throttle pedals, and can also be used to control load transfer."

"One common race situation that requires left-foot braking is when a racer is cornering under power. If the driver doesn't want to lift off the throttle, potentially causing trailing-throttle oversteer, left-foot braking can induce a mild oversteer situation, and help the car "tuck", or turn-in better. Mild left-foot braking can also help reduce understeer."

"The vehicle is balanced using engine power by use of the accelerator pedal, operated by the right foot. The left foot is thus brought into play to operate the brake. It is not as necessary to use this technique with Rear-wheel drive and All wheel drive rally vehicles because they can be easily turned rapidly by using excess power to the wheels and the use of opposite lock steering, however the technique is still beneficial when the driver needs to decelerate and slide at the same time. In rear wheel drive, left foot braking can be used when the car is at opposite lock and about to spin. Using throttle and brake will lock the front tires but not the rears, thus giving the rears more traction and bringing the front end around."

Wikipedia ftw.

XSNRGE

Try this.

If you're interested in a demonstration, I can show you in my car if you're going to the Simply Miata meet on the 23rd.

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J L

Discussions on racing can go on forever unless you ask about a specific thing. If you want to learn racing stuff go on the forums here:

http://www.casc.on.ca/

Hope to meet you guys on the 23rd

Edough

^Sure that'd be awesome. Hopefully I'll make it out.

I don't get anything he's doing at all. Like at 0:19 he downshifts multiple times rather quickly. why not just hold the clutch down and move the shifter down two gears and then just blip throttle once?

When DD'ing, I completely get off the gas, then press the clutch all the way down, then shift to next gear, waiting for the RPMs to drop, then let out the clutch. Does everyone else do this? I always shift at 3100 RPM, and I that from going from 1-2 I'll engage the 2nd gear when the needle drops to 2100 RPM or something, and slightly higher for each successive gear.

And when taking off at a stop light when DDin', I try to keep the revs at around 1000 RPM or a little higher (rather than higher rpms and slipping the clutch a lot) until the gear is first gear is fully engaged; is this right?

When racing, the drivers seem to only let off the gas a little, and ride the clutch pedal early, and don't depress it all the way when shifting (I guess they play around the grabbing point of the clutch)? I assume this would wear the car a lot more, but that's little concern to the driver.

Also, with regards to double clutching, I found this procedure...
1. Push clutch pedal down
2. Shift to neutral
3. Lift clutch pedal up
4. "Blip" throttle to raise engine speed, "engine half" transmission speed
5. Push clutch pedal down
6. Shift into lower gear
7. Lift clutch pedal up

Why not just skip steps 2,3,5? Must be something I'm missing here.

edit- Apparently it's something to do with the syncros and getting the transmission rotation up to speed. Why don't race cars have synchros?
double edit- Ah it seems its because when you put it in neutral and let the clutch out, your engaging an idler neutral gear which spins the rest of the gears in your transmission, essentially what a synchro does. correct me if I'm wrong.

brontosaurus

Nobody wastes time doing that shit anymore unless they're showing off or driving a semi. It's totally pointless.

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XSNRGE

As fun as it is to drive a Miata, driving a manual transmission has bored me to death that I've decided that I do need to spice up my daily routine and keep myself entertained.

What do you do for entertainment, Mr. Elitist? Go on forums to talk about how you know better than everyone with your engineering degree?

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brontosaurus

Says the man trying to be elitist while knowing nothing? I don't spread misinformation.

That's fine that you do it, but you're implying that people would do that in a race, and for the last 40 or 50 years, they haven't.

edit: Am I being trolled? I seriously think I'm being trolled right now.

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XSNRGE

I've made a mistake, I can suck it up and admit that. But I still don't understand how that makes me elitist. I've seen your other posts on here. There's a good chunk of people you've had arguments with. What does that say about you?

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brontosaurus

I've been wrong plenty of times and I admit it too. I probably come off as a pretty big dick, ah well.

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XSNRGE

A simple "incorrect, actually..." would show a better character than "sounds like you haven't a clue either".

Yeah really... I'm sure you're a pretty chill dude, but take it easy, everyone likes to have a bigger e-peen than the next guy, but we're all here to learn something, no need come off as a dick.

I hang out at a friend's Subaru shop often. They have one of Petter Solberg's prepared but not-used chassis there. They also build a good majority of the chassis used by teams in the Canadian Rally Championship, as well as have built a few cars for private teams in US (they have two of the blue w/ orange DC sticker STi's). They brought a prepared car over a couple of months ago to Colorado. These cars have normal gearboxes rather than a full-sequential like in WRC. They're still fragile as is and many of the clients I've had the chance to talk to have referred me to this video telling me that it is indeed something they do to give the least amount of harsh impact to the tranny.

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iRoadster

Insert Fast and Furious line about double clutching here -->

5X Racing

The British Touring Car Championship (BTCC) is a very unique series that looks more like rugby to us than racing from what we are used to. I honestly think they promote rough driving, as it makes the racing extremely exciting to watch. You will not see that type of driving in any other type of sports car racing anywhere, normally in any other sports car racing series (Rolex, Continental Tire Challenge, World Challenge, DTM) the race officials will penalize drivers for the forceful moves the BTCC guys pull.

I would hate to be a car owner in the BTCC, cause those cars get majorly F'd up every race, but it is very much the most popular racing series in the UK because of how exciting it is to watch, huge following over there. Every winter the Speed Channel usually airs the latest season of the BTCC along with the German Touring Cars (DTM) and the Australian V8 Supercars. Definitely worth setting your DVR for, these three series are the most entertaining on tv in my opinion.

More on the BTCC: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British...r_Championship

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John Adamczyk
Owner/President/Driver - 5X Racing Miata Motorsports Specialists LLC

batou

^ except spec miata. rubbin' is racing over there too.


XSNRGE & brontosaurus, take your bitch fight to pm.. no one wants to scroll through that.

J L

LOL agree with batou.

Edough, you figured it out. Double clutching is not needed in a synchronized gearbox because the synchos do the job of matching the speeds. Hell, you can even change gears without using the clutch if you do it slowly and gently. The only time I need to double clutch is when I want to get into first gear while rolling.

That vid of the subaru does have sycros, theory is to save it from wear. Why? Because racecar.......are expensive to maintain. Plus that is a rally car, tranny will take a beating over the course of several heats. Fast is nothing if you can finish the race.

The reason they don't skip gears is because the engine load is used as additional stopping power and to make sure you are in optimal gearing at all times incase you need to get on the power to evade and etc.

5X Racing

Yeah, SM definitely puts food on the table for the used Miata parts businesses out there, unfortunately that's mostly just from pure buffoonery, not necessarily "tactical" and on purpose like in BTCC. I was repairing damage after every race by the time I finished my 3rd season in SM. Shit gets old when it's on your own dime, even if used parts are abundant and cheap

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John Adamczyk
Owner/President/Driver - 5X Racing Miata Motorsports Specialists LLC

grantwilson

unless your syncros are shot, then you kinda have to

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