batou

Look at Miata Challenge for clues. They already worked out the rules.

Aero, Weight, and tires are probably the three biggest factors.

949Racing

Our copywrited rules.

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batou

^
well, they're going to have to figure it out then, heh.

Blackbird

Which are BTW not online, seems like the supermiata domain expired or something?
I tried looking for the rules a couple days ago to see how my car falls into them..

Moti

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949Racing

http://949racing.com/miata_challenge...enge_Rules.pdf

Also on the Speedventures.com site

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Blackbird

Page not found.
I tried following the links on SV's site and it goes to the expired supermiata domain.

Moti

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greeenteeee

I'd rather see a different classing than what we already have from 949/SV. It gives an alternative to Miata Challenge, and they should make it more appealing somehow in order to up the attendance of their organization, which I see as the entire point of this.

In essence, no one is going to jump between XS vs SV, so no need to match rules.

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'Spend your cash on seat-time until you are faster than the car." -wildo
"It's not a small jump... You need to enjoy working on the car or enjoy paying someone to work on it for you. If you have to make yourself work on the car, it's not for you..." - springfielddyno on SM to FP

ThePass

I'm not saying that I think a FI car should be allowed more points in Mod, I'm just asking for clarification about some of those categories - a turbo replaces the header and the intake. In other words, a turbo'd miata doesn't have either of those things. So, can a turbo'd miata ignore those two categories, or do you consider the turbo as falling into the category of being an aftermarket intake and an aftermarket header and therefore you must count those two categories as two of your allowed five?

My car for example fits into Mod, if a turbo car does not have to count the intake or header categories:

Modified Class: (8 of the 9 mods allowed) (Forced induction is allowed but only 5 of 9 mods
are allowed)
• 100 UTQG Tires No
• Header/Testpipe/ Hi-flow Cat No
• Exhaust Yes
• Intake No
• Coilovers/ Springs Yes
• Sway Bars F/R Yes
• Torsen Yes
• Motor swap to later 1.8's No
• ECU Yes

^ So for my car, that's 5 categories. But, if a F/I car has to count intake and header as two of their mods, most won't be able to fit into Mod class.

I get that you want to make it possible for a N/A miata to be competetive with a FI miata in this category, which I think is a good/fun idea.

I think the 8/9 for NA cars and 5/9 for FI cars works - if a FI car can ignore the intake and header categories.

If you feel that brings up too many questions, here is another option: make two separate sets of allowed mods for Mod class - one for FI cars, one for NA cars... something like this:

Something like the above I think gets you the closest to allowing NA and FI cars to run in the same class competetively together without confusion about what is or isn't allowed. Adding the Engine Internals mod in the FI category ensures that anything 250 whp and up or so goes in Unlimited where it should be.

I don't have a problem with leaving aero and weight unregulated for the sake of simplicity. I certainly think it should be open in Mod and Unlimited... the only reason I suggested regulating it to some degree (like allowing aftermarket replacement body panels but no aftermarket body additions, or something to that extent) for Street class is to retain the spirit of a "street" car in that class.

If I'm overstepping my bounds here, feel free to say so, just making some suggestions because I see that this could be something really cool and want to see it successful.

-Ryan

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Green 1999 - stock DD
2008 1000RR - 172 rwhp "You live more for 5 minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life" -Marco Simoncelli
2003 600RR - track bike

Dicker

You'd be in unlimited instantly with the lack of windsheild IIRC.

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Blackbird

If it really is that way, it is a no go.
Though I can't really see why, 949's PTD cars weigh almost the same, have more power and run at the very least similar level hardware, and they play in mod...

Moti

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949Racing

The drag reduction is immense. Not to mention both front and aero become far more efficient, CG gets lowered. It's a bigger difference than you might suppose. Best guess is Crusher would do about a 133.5 at WSIR and probably 1-2 sec faster if it was chopped.

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Good-Win Racing

I agree with Emilio. In my vintage racing events we ran various Triumph TR4s with...and without the windshield. Those cars are very close to Miata size and power, and several seconds faster without the drag and weight of the windshield than with it. Thus, I think if you lack a windshield you are properly bounced to the fastest class whether with ExtremeSpeed or Speedventures/MC (picture of me below after getting bounced up several classes at PIR....and still finishing ahead of those serious German things you see behind me...thanks to no windshield..and some well timed rain drops ).

Moti, you are trying so hard to get somebody to change their rules just for your car (thread at Miata.net too). Why not just add the power and run your car with the fastest classes? We all know you are no stranger to fast turbo powered track Miatas. Or, you and I can be the normally aspirated guys having our own little race fun. It must be more than a dozen years since we have run an event together? It would be great to get together again at one of these events. Hope you can make it, regardless of what class you run.

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Good-Win Racing
www.good-win-racing.com

Blackbird

Let's say that I completely agree with you, Emilio, as I honestly don't have much more than a hint for the potential of this platform yet.

However, and this will answer Brian's question as well, I feel that chopped windshield can be quantified, and that is the key here.
The way that things are written right now it is not.

You say Crusher would have gone 1-2 secs faster around WSIR with no windshield.
Let's assume crusher would have gotten a really good commercially available front end aero treatment and a bad ass wing setup, which according to MC rules would cost you +1.5 pts.
Do you honestly not believe that Crusher would have picked the same 1-2 secs at least?
I believe you would, which is why I think that putting a number to this "great unknown" is a reasonable move.

To give you an opposite example, I do not think that active aero could be quantified because you never know what one might come up with.
That is indeed, a true great unknown.

And Brian, I honestly didn't think anyone would reply here so I simply posted things on the M.net thread knowing that it will be seen .
BTW, the weight savings from removing the windshield and frame is an unimpressive 33 Lbs.

CR.net readers, if you wonder which thread it is that we're talking about, here's a link.

Moti

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Blackbird

And just another point of data.
In NASA PT rules which I'm sure that Emilio is already very familiar with and maybe you too Brian, the same exact approach is taken, adding penalty points for mods.

In this current revision of the rules (ver 6.2), the mods are taking points as following (simplified to reduce pixel waste) -

Vs.
Looks like NASA believes that either combination of front aero treatment plus rear wing = no windshield.


Funny!
Adding power meaning spending a bunch of time and cash and dealing with all the headaches that a modified motor will have, not to mention being harder on the car, components, wear and tear items etc...

However, if I got this correctly, the rules are written / approved by Emilio and Aaron, both of which are cool guys that I'm in good friendly relationship with
If by explaining my point and making them understand the reason for the proposed change I can avoid all the hassle of the above, why not?!

And yeah, you're right, it's been waaaay too long since we got out to play together.
This year things should be diffferent.

Moti

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ThePass

Any further info about the Modified class? I'm going to have to plan a schedule of events I plan to do this year, and it's going to be either Miata Challenge or this - gonna have to be one or the other...

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Green 1999 - stock DD
2008 1000RR - 172 rwhp "You live more for 5 minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life" -Marco Simoncelli
2003 600RR - track bike

kung fu jesus

Sonny say Crapcan can!

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rysmiata92

sonny car might not look the part but its fairly competative with him driving. all supporting mods, but the 1.6 holds it back. i rode in that at sow last year(?) quite fast. i like the idea of aero not affecting this class. ive got the racing beat 2 bumper and a diffuser which adds a good amount of points in MC but my 1.6L car is surly no mod class contender.

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greeenteeee

It's all driver, which is why I don't care so much where I land anymore because I'm certainly not as skilled as the top drivers in each class. Workin on it though!

__________________
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'Spend your cash on seat-time until you are faster than the car." -wildo
"It's not a small jump... You need to enjoy working on the car or enjoy paying someone to work on it for you. If you have to make yourself work on the car, it's not for you..." - springfielddyno on SM to FP

WPMiata

This is great! Hopefully I can bring my car back from the dead to try and get out there. Just got totaled by an oblivious woman on 12/14... I really want to thank everyone who is organizing this as it is a tremendous task and its really great to have alternative options to MC. Hope to see you guys out there at some point this season.

GrippyMiata

I'm at thw track this weekend. I'll reply on Monday. I'm gonna use the format you suggest its a good idea... Thanks for your imput.

GrippyMiata

What do you guys think of this?

Street Class: (6 of the 7 mods allowed)
• 140 UTQG Tires (141+ UTQG tires are not part of the list)
• Header/ Testpipe/ Hi-flow Cat
• Exhaust
• Intake
• Coilovers/ Springs
• Sway Bars F/R
• Torsen

Modified Class: (8 of the 9 mods allowed) (Forced induction is allowed but only 5 of 9 mods
are allowed)
• 100 UTQG Tires
• Header/ Testpipe/ Hi-flow Cat
• Exhaust
• Intake/ ITB's
• Coilovers/ Springs
• Sway Bars F/R
• Torsen/ Clutch type differential
• Motor swap to later 1.8's (01 and above models add this mod)
• ECU


Forced Induction Miatas in Modified Class: (6 of the 9 mods allowed)
• 100 UTQG Tires
• Testpipe/ Hi-flow Cat
• Exhaust
• Coilovers/ Springs
• Sway Bars F/R
• Torsen/ Clutch type differential
• Motor swap to later 1.8's (01 and above models add this mod)
• ECU
• Engine internals

Unlimited Class:
1. Unlimited!!

General Rules:
• All competitors must rent timing through ExtremeSpeedTrackEvents.
• All Miatas must have a roll bar installed prior to getting on the racetrack.
• Cooling and brake related mods are allowed in all classes.
• Aero and weight is unrestricted in Mod and Unlimited. Street class must retain semi OEM weight/aero. (If your wondering if you have too much aero/weight loss then you probably deserve to be in Modified )

ThePass

Well, I like it. Interested to see what others think.

-Ryan

__________________
Red '90 Turbo 1.6 - 207whp/208 ft-lbs - track car - Innovation by Blackbird Fabworx
Green 1999 - stock DD
2008 1000RR - 172 rwhp "You live more for 5 minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life" -Marco Simoncelli
2003 600RR - track bike

Bob Loblaw

So if you have an NA you can't throw in a BP4W and stay in street?

What is the lightest a car can weigh in at for street?

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Blackbird

So on a set of 140 tires I'm in street with room to grow
Sweet.

Moti

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ThePass

No, because:

You are far from OEM weight

__________________
Red '90 Turbo 1.6 - 207whp/208 ft-lbs - track car - Innovation by Blackbird Fabworx
Green 1999 - stock DD
2008 1000RR - 172 rwhp "You live more for 5 minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life" -Marco Simoncelli
2003 600RR - track bike

Bob Loblaw

Do you have to be street legal, current registration, and insured for street class?

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Blackbird

Not by the way that it is defined -
I'm well over half the weight of a street miata!
Also, my car has current registration tags and I'm merely bolting the stock exhaust back on from being completely street legal.

I obviously won't be running in street if I ran, but if following the letter of the rules...

Moti

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ThePass

Might need a rewording to "nearly" OEM weight? Lol

Granted, the spirit behind this idea seems to be to have a less stringent, more laid back series in terms of classing, but I think this highlights why Miata Challenge is specific about things - you have to be. People will always say, "well, HOW much lighter can I be to stay in street?" So unless you define it with a specific amount, you'll always get people needing clarification. And if you do specify - such as, "no less than 50 lbs less than OEM weight", then you have to set specific different weight limits based on which chassis the miata is, and you have to base it all on an honor system because most people don't know their true weight... so then it all goes back to the best strategy being to just specify from the beginning which items may be removed and which may not for street class instead of even bothering with weight numbers.

-Ryan

__________________
Red '90 Turbo 1.6 - 207whp/208 ft-lbs - track car - Innovation by Blackbird Fabworx
Green 1999 - stock DD
2008 1000RR - 172 rwhp "You live more for 5 minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life" -Marco Simoncelli
2003 600RR - track bike

horribleR

As I see it, I might be out gunned in Mod class if these rules pan out the way I think they are going to.

ThePass

^ As it is, there's pretty much no way a turbo/supercharged miata is going to also be able to run 100 treadwear tires - because just about any forced induction car is going to also have testipe/hi-flow cat, exhaust, torsen, sways, and suspension. Which means any forced induction miatas in Mod are gonna be on street tires, whereas the N/A cars get to use NT-01s. That, coupled with the fact that the N/A car can be lighter, I think has potential for a pretty even match up.
-Ryan

__________________
Red '90 Turbo 1.6 - 207whp/208 ft-lbs - track car - Innovation by Blackbird Fabworx
Green 1999 - stock DD
2008 1000RR - 172 rwhp "You live more for 5 minutes going fast on a bike like that, than other people do in all of their life" -Marco Simoncelli
2003 600RR - track bike