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Old 08-12-2015, 02:25 PM   #61 (permalink)
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I am just seeing what he has to offer. In my opinion I think his stance on health care and mental health is a favorable one that I would support.

http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-healthcare/

I am also in favor on his stance on the "war on drugs" I still find it ridiculous that there was a kid who make pot brownies and he got arrested for it and charged as though he was distributing pot in the weight of the brownies to the point where he was facing more jail time than murderers for a victim less crime.

I am also in favor of his position on making college state tuition free. It is my opinion that in order to have a society a better one, access to higher education is a must without having to take out thousands upon thousands of dollars in loans.

What I am very happy to see is his stance on alternate energy.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:28 PM   #62 (permalink)
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They're not selling baby parts and they aren't killing babies. A baby is the living, breathing human that comes out of a woman after the birthing process. What an abortion does is end a pregnancy. So no babies are being killed.

And no, no one is selling fetal organs or other parts. I'm sorry you've been lead to believe that, but you can do some research and find out that's propaganda and it's false. Falling victim to believing propaganda feels a bit icky to me, doesn't it to you?

No one "likes" abortions. But what most women do like is having freedoms to choose what is best for their families and their bodies. A small radical Christian group is funding all of this information as a means to their end to force their beliefs on the entire population of the free United States. If you are a radical Christian you are free to believe what you would like, but you have no right to control what every woman in this country does with her body.

And with that, I'll tap out.
obviously the question is a philosophical one and not as easy as you'd make it seem. I feel like people are living in a fantasy land if they don't think an unborn baby is a baby. People can justify anything to themselves. If the question is a scientific one, I win. The only difference between a zygote and a fully grown human is food, o2, and time. I think it's better for people to grow the fuck up, take responsibility, and raise their baby than have an abortion. Once upon a time children were seen as having inherent value..

if were talking about the value of the parent vs the baby.. as in the mother and possibly child will likely die during childbirth, mom wins. we can always make more babies.. that would be a tough thing to deal with for sure though..

And as far as the propaganda thing.. I pay almost zero attention to the media in any case. It was just something I caught on TV. If you want to share something exposing the truth then by all means.

My belief in the Christian God probably does affect my morality (as it should) but you're committing the genetic fallacy if you think that somehow makes them "wrong"
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:30 PM   #63 (permalink)
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Well in some cases I think government intervention is necessary. Take alternate energy for example. If it is cheaper to run off of fossil fuels that are killing our environment what is the incentive to change? Numbers are numbers regardless of the lasting effects to the world because it all comes down to the profits at the end of the quarters to show their investors. Sometimes there needs to be a swift kick to the pants to bring about any change because it isnt necessarily the least expensive alternative.

If the government didn't mandate safety equipment in cars auto manufacturers would be selling gigantic steel piece of shit that dont bother to address safety because that doesnt necessarily make them any more money even if it is unethical.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:31 PM   #64 (permalink)
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I am just seeing what he has to offer. In my opinion I think his stance on health care and mental health is a favorable one that I would support.

http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-healthcare/

I am also in favor on his stance on the "war on drugs" I still find it ridiculous that there was a kid who make pot brownies and he got arrested for it and charged as though he was distributing pot in the weight of the brownies to the point where he was facing more jail time than murderers for a victim less crime.
This isnt enough for me to get behind a socialist. Especially since we are probably going to vote to put a stop to most of this shit soon anyhow.

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I am also in favor of his position on making college state tuition free. It is my opinion that in order to have a society a better one, access to higher education is a must without having to take out thousands upon thousands of dollars in loans.
Sure, sounds great. But there is a bigger deal ahead that not even he, the socialist is talking about:

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Originally Posted by Bernie Sanders
But nothing is “free”! How are you going to pay for this?

There are various measures that have been proposed to cover these changes. In the College for All Act, which Bernie sponsored, a “Robin Hood” tax on Wall Street would be implemented – a 0.5 percent speculation fee on investment houses, hedge funds, and other stock trades, as well as a 0.1 percent fee on bonds and a 0.005 percent fee charged on derivatives. These very small taxes on the financial sector would completely cover the cost of providing free higher education to all students who are willing and able to attend college or university.
Moreover, the cost of not providing higher education must also be factored into consideration. A more educated workforce is likely to lead to higher incomes and a higher GDP for the nation, which will lead to increased prosperity, wealth, and consumer spending in its own right. In addition, families and individuals will spend their income freely instead of saving it for college tuition or using it to pay back student loans. This rise in consumer spending will also likely have a positive effect on the nation’s GDP.
Oh, sure, we can just tax Wall St. and the rich, they can afford it, right? But it does not stop there, believe that. Because youre gonna need that education to make more money, but because of inflation will actually be less money. And also because of all the poor people who are on the tit arent going to be motivated to go out and get a job any more than they were before, they are gonna tax your higher educated earnings to pay for them.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:33 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Well in some cases I think government intervention is necessary. Take alternate energy for example. If it is cheaper to run off of fossil fuels that are killing our environment what is the incentive to change? Numbers are numbers regardless of the lasting effects to the world because it all comes down to the profits at the end of the quarters to show their investors. Sometimes there needs to be a swift kick to the pants to bring about any change because it isnt necessarily the least expensive alternative.

If the government didn't mandate safety equipment in cars auto manufacturers would be selling gigantic steel piece of shit that dont bother to address safety because that doesnt necessarily make them any more money even if it is unethical.
100% disagree. Not constitutional and not allowing the people to sway commerce.

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Old 08-12-2015, 02:33 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Legalize drugs and tax them. No more war on drugs. First time DWI should be some kind of counseling/rehab. Second DWI counseling/rehab then prison. Third time DWI and up should be flat prison.

Repeal all seat belt and texting while driving laws, and adjust the vehicular manslaughter/vehicular assault laws accordingly. Texting on your phone, cause a crash and injure someone? Vehicular assault.

And Stoly is right, no where in the Constitution does it say we are a democracy.

And truth be told, I don't start paying to politics until closer to the primaries.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:34 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Yeah because no one had ever been raped and got pregnant before.....or had complications with pregnancy that could kill the mother if the fetus is aborted....

Fact of the matter is this country is FREE and you are allowed to have your own beliefs. In contrast, you are not allowed to force your beliefs upon someone else or take away someone's rights. This isn't a matter of morality, it's a matter of choice.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:36 PM   #68 (permalink)
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How about taxing religion. I am not talking about the small 10 to 20 person church (although they probably should be taxed as well) I am talking about the super mega churches that have movie theatres, hair salons, and other ridiculous amenities.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:39 PM   #69 (permalink)
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How about taxing religion. I am not talking about the small 10 to 20 person church (although they probably should be taxed as well) I am talking about the super mega churches that have movie theatres, hair salons, and other ridiculous amenities.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:41 PM   #70 (permalink)
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obviously the question is a philosophical one and not as easy as you'd make it seem. I feel like people are living in a fantasy land if they don't think an unborn baby is a baby. People can justify anything to themselves. If the question is a scientific one, I win. The only difference between a zygote and a fully grown human is food, o2, and time. I think it's better for people to grow the fuck up, take responsibility, and raise their baby than have an abortion. Once upon a time children were seen as having inherent value..

And as far as the propaganda thing.. I pay almost zero attention to the media in any case. It was just something I caught on TV. If you want to share something exposing the truth then by all means.

My belief in the Christian God probably does affect my morality (as it should) but you're committing the genetic fallacy if you think that somehow makes them "wrong"
If the only difference between a zygote and a fully grown human are those things, then why cant they just take it out, add food, time and o2 and voila! Oh, wait. They cant survive outside of the host.

Also, sometimes its not wanting to duck responsibility. Its just simply not your call to make. Again, its not as if this isnt an ordeal for the person involved who ultimately has to make the choice to have a baby aborted. I dont think there are very many women who put the gown on, get in the stirrups and go ahead with it that dont have thoughts. That dont have feelings. What-ifs and why-or-why-nots. Sometimes, you arent capable of the monetary or fiduciary commitment. Thats $304,000 just to get the child to 18. Thats not including college. Thats not including the possibilities of birth defects or special needs. Thats $1400/mo, $16.8k/yr just for the child.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:46 PM   #71 (permalink)
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How about taxing religion. I am not talking about the small 10 to 20 person church (although they probably should be taxed as well) I am talking about the super mega churches that have movie theatres, hair salons, and other ridiculous amenities.
I agree and I attend Church. Give to Caeser what is Caeser's. Followers in the Bible are encouraged to pay taxes.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:46 PM   #72 (permalink)
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I agree and I attend Church. Give to Caeser what is Caeser's. Followers in the Bible are encouraged to pay taxes.
And there are many other things in the bible people are encouraged to do. Funny how they pick and choose, isnt it?
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:50 PM   #73 (permalink)
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No one "likes" abortions. But what most women do like is having freedoms to choose what is best for their families and their bodies.
What if the woman doesn't want the baby but the man does? 'Her body, her choice' right? Then how is it the woman can choose to have the baby and the man get stuck with 18+ years of child support, but the man can't choose to keep the baby?

Just 'signing his rights away' doesn't always make child support payments go away.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:50 PM   #74 (permalink)
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If the only difference between a zygote and a fully grown human are those things, then why cant they just take it out, add food, time and o2 and voila! Oh, wait. They cant survive outside of the host.

Also, sometimes its not wanting to duck responsibility. Its just simply not your call to make. Again, its not as if this isnt an ordeal for the person involved who ultimately has to make the choice to have a baby aborted. I dont think there are very many women who put the gown on, get in the stirrups and go ahead with it that dont have thoughts. That dont have feelings. What-ifs and why-or-why-nots. Sometimes, you arent capable of the monetary or fiduciary commitment. Thats $304,000 just to get the child to 18. Thats not including college. Thats not including the possibilities of birth defects or special needs. Thats $1400/mo, $16.8k/yr just for the child.
Probably no secret here that I don't believe in a god. You raise an interesting point and, in a way, that gets ignored because I'm in the minority.

My issue with abortion is circles. I believe that every action you take opens a circle. The reaction to that completes the circle.

Abortion to avoid the closing of a bad choice, to me, is not living (no pun intended) with your choice. Extrapolated to the extreme, it feels like I live in a world that has a Government answer to every wrong choice you can make. And in some instances, bad choices you want to make.

The rape/mother-in-danger argument is weak because it is accounted for on all sides. Deciding that the choices you made a month (or seven) ago don't have any ramifications bother me on a philosophical level.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:50 PM   #75 (permalink)
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obviously the question is a philosophical one and not as easy as you'd make it seem. I feel like people are living in a fantasy land if they don't think an unborn baby is a baby. People can justify anything to themselves. If the question is a scientific one, I win. The only difference between a zygote and a fully grown human is food, o2, and time. I think it's better for people to grow the fuck up, take responsibility, and raise their baby than have an abortion. Once upon a time children were seen as having inherent value..

if were talking about the value of the parent vs the baby.. as in the mother and possibly child will likely die during childbirth, mom wins. we can always make more babies.. that would be a tough thing to deal with for sure though..

And as far as the propaganda thing.. I pay almost zero attention to the media in any case. It was just something I caught on TV. If you want to share something exposing the truth then by all means.

My belief in the Christian God probably does affect my morality (as it should) but you're committing the genetic fallacy if you think that somehow makes them "wrong"
So there is no such thing as a medically necessary abortion? What would you suggest to a mom who is on accutane and accidentally gets pregnant. Would you rather the parent give birth to a child who will have sever birth defects? Or what about incest or rape or any other reason? Abortion isnt as cut and dry as it should be banned. There are valid reasons as to why it would even be a consideration.

Hell we euthanize animals because to prolong their life would be to condemn them to a life of suffering. Why should we not do that to a child before they have to endure that suffering.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:52 PM   #76 (permalink)
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And there are many other things in the bible people are encouraged to do. Funny how they pick and choose, isnt it?
Yah publicly stoning people comes to mind, and not the good kind.
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Old 08-12-2015, 02:59 PM   #77 (permalink)
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The Bible is nothing more than a history book for that region after the Tower of Babel. They were all scattered and given new languages. And no mention of them after. History of the greater Isreal/Greece/Mediterranean area for that time. No more. No less.

Oh. And there are 50 missing years between hayzues being killed and any mention of him in any book. Including your Bible.

Come at me, bro. ;-)
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:02 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Hell we euthanize animals because to prolong their life would be to condemn them to a life of suffering. Why should we not do that to a child before they have to endure that suffering.
if you don't see a human as more valuable than an animal I don't think we have anything to discuss.

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Yah publicly stoning people comes to mind, and not the good kind.
Stoning sounds like a more fitting punishment for a murderer than a decade on death row and a peaceful death. But the Levitical laws were for the Government to enforce, not the people..

For the sake of this thread, lets keep theology to PMs I was just defending myself against the accusation that I'm only pro-life because I'm a Christian. Wasn't trying to start a whole thing. Also (this isn't directed at anyone as I have no way of knowing) I don't want a bunch of people who get their religious views from Facebook posts babbling about a book they've never read.

so anyway.. politics
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:03 PM   #79 (permalink)
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The Bible is nothing more than a history book for that region after the Tower of Babel. They were all scattered and given new languages. And no mention of them after. History of the greater Isreal/Greece/Mediterranean area for that time. No more. No less.

Oh. And there are 50 missing years between hayzues being killed and any mention of him in any book. Including your Bible.

Come at me, bro. ;-)
The bible as we know it, as its been edited and rewritten so many times, is probably only useful as historical fiction at this point. Anything that is in there that isnt corroborated by other sources as being fact may as well just be made up.

Everyone is an atheist, some of us just go one god further.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:03 PM   #80 (permalink)
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I disagree. Theology should be included. It is, to some, what makes you tick.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:03 PM   #81 (permalink)
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I would like to hear your point-of-view in more depth. Couple of things that caught my interest...

- Voter registration pool being used for jurors.
- Politians running things instead of business minded people.
- How a Socialist will make our country better.
- How, and what specifically, our Founder's got wrong.
Who else should be used as jurors? Lawyers? Police? Politicians?

What in the constitution says anything otherwise?

I am not a fan of politicians, I'm not a fan of businessmen/women.

You think the government is a picture of waste/abuse/backroom deals, what do you think big business is?

A socialist could make things better by:
-Socializing healthcare.

That alone could huge amounts of money if put in place properly.

What did the founders get wrong?

They didn't get anything wrong per se. But those documents are 200+ years old, when the US was weak, they couldn't have foreseen the world today.

One thing they got right?

The separation of powers.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:04 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Also (this isn't directed at anyone as I have no way of knowing) I don't want a bunch of people who get their religious views from Facebook posts babbling about a book they've never read.
Psh. K-8 Parochial school and church every Sunday til I was 16. Ive forgotten more than most people who cling to the bible ever knew.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:05 PM   #83 (permalink)
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The bible as we know it is probably only useful as historical fiction at this point. Anything that is in there that isnt corroborated by other sources as being fact may as well just be made up.

Everyone is an atheist, some of us just go one god further.
I thought you hated me... Sorry if we had a moment of agreement.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:07 PM   #84 (permalink)
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I'm not your biggest fan, but sometimes you speak truth.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:08 PM   #85 (permalink)
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if you don't see a human as more valuable than an animal I don't think we have anything to discuss.



Stoning sounds like a more fitting punishment for a murderer than a decade on death row and a peaceful death. But the Levitical laws were for the Government to enforce, not the people..

For the sake of this thread, lets keep theology to PMs I was just defending myself against the accusation that I'm only pro-life because I'm a Christian. Wasn't trying to start a whole thing. Also (this isn't directed at anyone as I have no way of knowing) I don't want a bunch of people who get their religious views from Facebook posts babbling about a book they've never read.

so anyway.. politics
I see all animals as having inherent value to life. I see no reason to unnecessarily burden some lives with life with death shortly after. What do you say about that family that knew their child was going to be born missing most of their head and they went ahead and had the baby. That child died shortly after. If suffering could have been reduced in any way I am all for that. I think it is cruel to force someone or animal to suffer unnecessarily.

What is bolded would inflict more suffering. Every year there is evidence to suggest that people were wrongly accused of crimes and killed. At least with the current system there is some time to make absolutely sure that that is minimized versus making a ruling and stoning someone publicly that night.

Or even for non violent crimes
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And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:10 PM   #86 (permalink)
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The bible as we know it, as its been edited and rewritten so many times, is probably only useful as historical fiction at this point. Anything that is in there that isnt corroborated by other sources as being fact may as well just be made up.

Everyone is an atheist, some of us just go one god further.
So pastafarians are just as right? All hail our noodly overload.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:11 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Default Re: Politics and Such Discussion Thread

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So pastafarians are just as right? All hail our noodly overload.
Sure, in the same way that all religions are right, including Scientologists. Right to be thought of as myth and nothing more.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:12 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Default Re: Politics and Such Discussion Thread

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Who else should be used as jurors? Lawyers? Police? Politicians?

What in the constitution says anything otherwise?

I am not a fan of politicians, I'm not a fan of businessmen/women.

You think the government is a picture of waste/abuse/backroom deals, what do you think big business is?

A socialist could make things better by:
-Socializing healthcare.

That alone could huge amounts of money if put in place properly.

What did the founders get wrong?

They didn't get anything wrong per se. But those documents are 200+ years old, when the US was weak, they couldn't have foreseen the world today.

One thing they got right?

The separation of powers.
Thank you! Art imitates life and ironic that two people can look at the same thing and have two totally different interpretations.

Jury pool by voter registration is illegal.
Government healthcare is illegal.
Separation of powers is something we agree upon. So long as the laws binding those separations are followed.
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:12 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Default Re: Politics and Such Discussion Thread

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But I think I'd vote for him based upon his track record and ability to produce a return on investment.
You mean his track record of bankrupting companies by being overleveraged? Yes, that's exactly what we need....
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Old 08-12-2015, 03:13 PM   #90 (permalink)
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Default Re: Politics and Such Discussion Thread

I think that even people that claim to be an athiest pretend god exists. They pretend their lives matter, they get angry when someone violates them, they believe in things like love, justice, talent, etc.

Why should an athiest believe life has any value at all besides what they decide? again.. that sounds like fantasy land to me..

post modernism is post human.. if sunsets aren't pretty and lies aren't bad.. we are no longer human.
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