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Old 09-22-2010, 12:25 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default 20 valve 4age?

Ive been searching around for possible miata swaps and i thought maybe a 20 valve 4age would be cool? they come fwd, but with the ae86 trans they can be mounted rwd. anybody have any info on swap? has it been done before? tips? etc.

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Last edited by idylan123; 09-22-2010 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:26 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

yeah i've seen it swapped into an ae86
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:31 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

I think it would be a silly thing to do. The aftermarket for the B6 and BP is much bigger than the 4A-GE anyway.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:32 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

lol
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Originally Posted by imnatelol View Post
yeah i've seen it swapped into an ae86
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:33 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

Hi I put one in a clubman i built a few years ago.Great motor but i found it hard to find a good gearbox to put behind it.In australia the rear drive boxes that fit are getting a bit old and dont handle the power,and i broke a couple of boxes.cheers
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:37 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

it has been done but i cant find the thread
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:39 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

All you need is a nice, high-rise exhaust manifold like the ones pictured and wham-o! You've got the look.

The 2 engines have similar power ratings (one just revs higher and makes 140hp instead of 120), so why bother with a swap when you could just build the Miata engine up?
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Old 09-22-2010, 04:04 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

The 4AGE 20V is an awesome unbreakable motor (I have one in my track hack Corolla) but a conversion be overly complex what with the lack of PPF pickup etc. I hypothesized a while back that the 3SGE Beams motor (200 odd hp stock) might be a good candidate. Reason being that the stock manual gearbox is the same as the Miata 6spd. It might be possible that with a rear housing swap the 3SGE engine/gearbox combination will bolt up to the PPF? Unfortunately I'm not in Australia at the moment so can't get near one to check it out...but it'd be a killer swap.
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Old 09-22-2010, 07:52 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

sorry jc heres a norm for ya

and idk what motors youre comparing.. but my 1.6 has like 100 or less REAL horse lol. and the 4th gen silver top 20 valves have like 160

and the 5th gen black tops make 163!


butttttttttttt
if i were to get the 1.8, some come stock turbo'd or supercharged correct? are they hard to find?

Last edited by idylan123; 09-22-2010 at 08:03 AM.
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Old 09-22-2010, 11:51 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

Dylan, it seems like you have a lot to learn about Miatas and I can't believe I'm going to perpetuate your armchair swap buuuuut It would be a very cool swap and I have considered it from time to time, but it is only a step backwards for me. When I have a spare car and time it would be something I would consider because the sound of an ITB 4age is sex. Yes, stock Blacktop corolla's are faster than 1.6L's with M45 just ask me how i know. Its a great motor to get 200 NA WHP out of but it doesn't make "sense" to swap it in.
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

im a big fan of building the miata motor...which I know building is expensive....most motor swaps seem to be useless IMO...but swaps should be a vertical shift in power and not such a horizontal shift....meaning go with a bigger motor...if I were you...id buy a junkyard 1.8 and keep it on the side and work on it when u get extra time and money
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Old 09-22-2010, 12:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

The only engine worth considering would be a Beams 3S-GE. They came in most of the high trim Altezza/IS cars and its a popular swap into mid-rear chassis cars. (AW, SW, ZZW) It makes about 190hp at 7,500 rpms.

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Old 09-22-2010, 01:49 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

I would love to do a Blacktop BEAMS swap one day. I believe the redtop (FWD) is the popular swap for MR2's.
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Old 09-22-2010, 02:13 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

Both the engines in this thread are cool on their own but I don't think either is worth the swap.

Sr20 kits exists
ls1 if you have alot of money
302 swap cheaper then ls1 but not as cool
fe3 swap
if you want an NA monster s2000 swap. There's already a build log on one and this engine stock is where most other NA 4 bangers dream to become.
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Old 09-22-2010, 04:55 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

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Originally Posted by idylan123 View Post
sorry jc heres a norm for ya

and idk what motors youre comparing.. but my 1.6 has like 100 or less REAL horse lol. and the 4th gen silver top 20 valves have like 160

and the 5th gen black tops make 163!
butttttttttttt
if i were to get the 1.8, some come stock turbo'd or supercharged correct? are they hard to find?
Sorry, smartass. I guess the Club4A-GE forum where I got the figures from is full of idiots. Don't wink at me like you know everything. There's plenty to compare between the two.

A good 1.6 Miata WILL make about 115whp (Right around factory numbers). A good 1.8 can make 130ish (again, stock numbers).

-16 Valve -

Gen 1: 112hp
Gen2: 115hp
Gen 3: 130hp (US market) 140hp (Japan)

Those were all factory numbers. I will give the 20 valve specs to you, as they were accurate. However, the 20 Valve engines have higher compression and newer technology (itbs, no afm, etc..).

With those numbers, 16 valve swap would just be retarded. You'd gain almost nothing. A 20 valve swap would be a step in the right direction (as numbers go) but you can do all of those things to a 1.8 BP and get the same or better numbers. Or.....for the time and money, you could just turbo the BP and easily make more power than the Toyota.

The '04-'05 Mazdaspeed MX5 is the only Miata that came turbocharged from the factory, but swapping into an early Miata is a royal pain from what I understand. The Miata never came supercharged.

Google is your friend. We also have this newfangled device called the search tab.

Last edited by JC-MX5; 09-22-2010 at 05:07 PM.
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:31 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

You'd do all the work and fabrication for 60hp? You do realize unless you're a talented fabricator this is going to atleast cost 8 grand right? Thats on the cheap too.
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Old 09-22-2010, 05:57 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

Better solution. 13B.
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Old 09-22-2010, 06:13 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

The beams engine would be nice!
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:49 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fms01 View Post
The 4AGE 20V is an awesome unbreakable motor (I have one in my track hack Corolla) but a conversion be overly complex what with the lack of PPF pickup etc. I hypothesized a while back that the 3SGE Beams motor (200 odd hp stock) might be a good candidate. Reason being that the stock manual gearbox is the same as the Miata 6spd. It might be possible that with a rear housing swap the 3SGE engine/gearbox combination will bolt up to the PPF? Unfortunately I'm not in Australia at the moment so can't get near one to check it out...but it'd be a killer swap.

could you further explain this? i used to be a big toyota guy (actualy owned a blacktop 20valve swapped mr2), but i have never heard of the altezza transmission fitting with the miata 6 speed?
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Old 09-22-2010, 09:54 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Sorry, smartass. I guess the Club4A-GE forum where I got the figures from is full of idiots. Don't wink at me like you know everything. There's plenty to compare between the two.
wasnt trying to be a smartass, i was showing a stock motor because YOU were being a smartass about the manifolds. lol. i am very sarcastic and i wasnt trying to start anything lol but i should realize the internet is the worst place for sarcasm as u can never tell lol. but anyway, i am actually considering the 1.8 miata motor, but is it worth the 15 horse? im guessing theres more to it than that i guess.. does it have stronger internals etc? i know its an easy swap, just have to swap over mostly electrical, thermostat, TB, intake tubing etc. i know i could search, but i figured were already on the subject so ill just ask.
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Old 09-23-2010, 12:14 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

4AGZE would be fun.
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Old 09-23-2010, 05:42 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

There was a old man aroundabouts where I lived that had one.... let me drive it a few times and it wasn't that special. Alot faster then a stock 1.6 or 1.8 but with less money and same amount of fab he could have done a F20. And he even admitted that.
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Old 09-23-2010, 06:35 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

the 20v 4A is a an awesome motor...

in an AW11...
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Old 09-23-2010, 06:56 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

Quote:
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could you further explain this? i used to be a big toyota guy (actualy owned a blacktop 20valve swapped mr2), but i have never heard of the altezza transmission fitting with the miata 6 speed?
the NB 6spd, Beams 6spd and S15 Silvia all shared the same Aisin box (AZ6 I think is the code). Obviously different bellhousings to match different engines and probably also rear housings (Miata/MX5 was the only one to use a PPF). What I don't know is though whether the main central section is cross compatible or if any parts are mix and match. As I said I am not in a position to check this till I get back to Aus but a beams engine in a MX5/Miata...I'd sell my turbo setup to have that (much prefer NA)

Cheers,
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Old 09-23-2010, 01:35 PM   #25 (permalink)
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wasnt trying to be a smartass, i was showing a stock motor because YOU were being a smartass about the manifolds. lol. i am very sarcastic and i wasnt trying to start anything lol but i should realize the internet is the worst place for sarcasm as u can never tell lol. but anyway, i am actually considering the 1.8 miata motor, but is it worth the 15 horse? im guessing theres more to it than that i guess.. does it have stronger internals etc? i know its an easy swap, just have to swap over mostly electrical, thermostat, TB, intake tubing etc. i know i could search, but i figured were already on the subject so ill just ask.
I was? I guess I missed it.... <--- Sarcasm font.

Why are you going by stock hp numbers? You're obviously going to mod the engine so why is the 15 more stock hp even in question? No swap is "easy". There's lots of work involved. Just so I don't have to explain it all, here's a good place to start. (The 1.6 is mod friendly too, keep that in mind. You don't necessarily have to jump straight to a 1.8 to make good power.)

http://www.flyinmiata.com/tech/1.8_conversion.php

Miata.net should have some info too. They're the bank of Miata knowledge. Some info that would help is what you want out of your project. Daily driver? Mad tyte drifter? Track car? What power do you want to make? Boost or no boost?
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Old 09-23-2010, 02:37 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

the cool factor would be through the roof if a 20v swap was done in a miata, and you get that toyota reliability hahaha
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Old 09-23-2010, 04:35 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fms01 View Post
I hypothesized a while back that the 3SGE Beams motor (200 odd hp stock) might be a good candidate. Reason being that the stock manual gearbox is the same as the Miata 6spd. It might be possible that with a rear housing swap the 3SGE engine/gearbox combination will bolt up to the PPF? Unfortunately I'm not in Australia at the moment so can't get near one to check it out...but it'd be a killer swap.
Highly doubtful that the Toyota unit would work. That's what we thought when we started the SR20 swap into my Miata. We quickly learned that "same transmission" is not the same as "similar appearning transmission case".

The NB 6spd also shares appearance and stamping with the Nissan S15 6spd and S14 Turbo 6spd. Totally different aside from a very strong external appearance. The tail shaft of a Miata does not fit mainly b/c the output shaft size is going to be totally different.
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Old 09-23-2010, 04:52 PM   #28 (permalink)
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the cool factor would be through the roof if a 20v swap was done in a miata, and you get that toyota reliability hahaha
Miata engines are plenty reliable....

*edit* D'oh! I got the joke. lol
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Old 09-25-2010, 05:32 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

IMO whats the point of swapping anything into a miata when it is sooo easy to get 250hp turbo'd... UNLESS u want n/a power, then just ITB and megasquirt or go v8... everything else is a big waste of time/money.

just my 2 cents.

cmon! iron block / aluminum head / closed deck / oil squirters / 9:1 comp ratio... etc etc.... its just begging for boost... lemme tell u, a boosted mitty feels damn good and poeple @ MTnet get there suuuuuuper cheap.

if you have the cash to dish out and u WANT to be different: props to u man.
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Old 09-26-2010, 01:25 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Default Re: 20 valve 4age?

im gonna to cry to see you fucked up another car like u did with cressy
t50 gonna blow up all the time go with sr or build mx5 1.6
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