Mazduh

So my cousin has a f20c and another f22c motor sitting in his basement that he's been collecting for parts etc for his own s2k. Opinions, which is better for the swap? What do you think each one is worth individually? (both low miles and have trans) I personally like the f20c w/ 9k redline over the f22c with minimal difference in power and only 8k redline.

Plus correct me if I'm wrong but if you did a f22c swap in a miata does that mean it would have to be drive by wire? Or was drive by wire only on the later model s2k's with f22's?

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Build #361 2005 Mica Black MSM:
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Quinn

I am willing to bet that almost 99% of the motors that met their demise early was a result of the owner, not the engine being poorly made. A lot of people suck at owning cars. They neglect oil changes and maintenance. Some excessively beat the living shit out of their cars for no good reason, etc.

The F20C cars have more loose ring clearances to aid the 9k RPM capabilities. These motors burn oil, no way around it. 1 quart every 1000 miles is perfectly acceptible per Honda's guidelines. Yet, I have seen many s2000 owners who change their oil every 5k miles. In addition many motors that failed from oil starvation. Not only do you have to monitor the oil level, but my oil will be pretty dark by 2200 miles (on my daily driver), which is around where I typically change it. Plus, there is a reason why you don't see many engines coming from the factory that spin to 9k. There are trade offs that come with that high of RPM. My car now has 93k and is still going strong.

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1999 NB8C, TWM ITB's, Adaptronics, Maruha Header + Cams, Advan RG II's, 4.77's, 172whp
1994 NA8C, SCCA Spec Miata Race Car, 106whp
1991 NA6C, Turbo, Flares, Tein Flex, MSPNP, Work Equip 01's, Retro Goodness, 254whp
1993 FD3S, SP 13b, T04S 60-1, Haltech, V-Mount, 99 Spec Aero, RPF-1's, 417whp
1993 FD3S, SP 13b, T04S 60-1, V-Mount, RE-Amemiya Widebody in progress
2003 AP1, AP2V1 Wheels, Kuhmo XS, Daily Grind and 1993 Suburban K1500, The Lump

VtecMX5

I installed Krank Vents on my F20 and it took care of my oil burning issues. I used to use almost a quart or so every 3,000 miles, but now its not really noticable. My Type-R burned a lot of oil also, but never installed the Krank vents to see if it helped.

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1992 Miata w/ 2002 F20C swap. Comptech Supercharger/ aftercooler, 95 Diff w/LSD. Other stuff too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMWpb8wq9qg

Quinn

Interesting. Do you have a link with some more info on these specifically for the F20? Their website doesn't say much for vehicle specifics.

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1999 NB8C, TWM ITB's, Adaptronics, Maruha Header + Cams, Advan RG II's, 4.77's, 172whp
1994 NA8C, SCCA Spec Miata Race Car, 106whp
1991 NA6C, Turbo, Flares, Tein Flex, MSPNP, Work Equip 01's, Retro Goodness, 254whp
1993 FD3S, SP 13b, T04S 60-1, Haltech, V-Mount, 99 Spec Aero, RPF-1's, 417whp
1993 FD3S, SP 13b, T04S 60-1, V-Mount, RE-Amemiya Widebody in progress
2003 AP1, AP2V1 Wheels, Kuhmo XS, Daily Grind and 1993 Suburban K1500, The Lump

xjdognbx

Quinn, I envy the amount of cars you own.

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VtecMX5

http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=1761047

I used to own Twin Turbo 3000GT and had the same problem. Would actually smoke out the exhaust on deceleration. Fixed the oil burning. Its worth the $100 to me.

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1992 Miata w/ 2002 F20C swap. Comptech Supercharger/ aftercooler, 95 Diff w/LSD. Other stuff too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMWpb8wq9qg

Miatadam

I did the same thing on my S2k, it fixed my oil burning issues to ZERO from a quart every 1k miles. Worth every penny.

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1993ka24det

Im thinking of doing the same swap, but I was thinking of buying a new K member and doing the swap to it. When I have everything ready, then drop out the old K member/engine/trans.

Diamond Dave

That is AWESOME!! You're basically done with the swap.

1vicissitude

Lol. I think you need to think about that some more.

The easiest part of the swap will be getting the actual motor mounted. What about trans placement, exhaust routing, the wiring harness, intake plumbing, driveshaft fitment, etc? That all needs to be done engine in car. Your subframe idea is required, how else would you fabricate the mounts? That's only one step of a hundred.

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edwinbong

am i the only one who caught the cali smog legal part?

the s2k dude

i have 2 s2000s, a 95 miata r package daily, and an ae86 coupe with no motor.. with an f20 complete swap sitting... waiting for a new engine bay to sit in.. should i scrap the corolla and go miata? lol.

kingkong117

miata has a better layout...sorry but it does im next in line for a f22c swap

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....BayAreaRoadster....

Now, me and the mad scientist got to rip apart the block... and replace the piston rings you fried.

the s2k dude

i love the corolla coupe tho.. i wish i had the time and money to swap an f20/22 into all the underpowered cars that i love lol. eventhough i just blew my first f22 after about a year and a half of track duties...

:'(

Blackbird

What's the cause of death?
Did you over rev it? oiling problem?
Poking a hole in the block isn't normal wear and tear...

Moti

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kingkong117

looks like the bearings on the connecting rod

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....BayAreaRoadster....

Now, me and the mad scientist got to rip apart the block... and replace the piston rings you fried.

sidewaystocurb

i was on the s2ki forum when i owned mt s2k and it was a solid motor from what i read. most guys runnig gt3071r and putting out 370-over 400whp on stock internals just a 3mm head gasket. those cars have very aggressive gearing. in the ap1 you have the 9k redline but in the ap2 you get shorter gearing form 1-4 along with the bigger engine and more torque. (8lbs of torque more) not alot but the 1-4 shorter gearing and extra bit a torque make it much more drivable. i didnt believe this untill i drove them back to back. love the way s2ks look. the styling does not look dated. when my motor blows from the 16psi or i just get tired of the miata ill part it or sell it and pick another one up.

Lime-Light

I really don't see the point in this swap. A stock S2000 makes about 192/131 to the wheels, and for most of that time makes piss-poor torque. It's an exciting sound, sure, but not really fast enough to be worth the effort. A 1.8 with a GT28 will make 250/210 with a much broader torque curve and way more area under the curve, and would be cheaper and less labor intensive. I wouldn't call an F20 unreliable, but as has been stated there are dissadvantages to revving to 9k RPM, and they don't outwheigh the powerband results in my opinion. Overall it was a failed experiment for Honda.

wajalama

Whoa, whoa, "failed experiment"? Sort of a bold statement there, don't you think, bud?

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sidewaystocurb

+1
failed?
hes gotta be joking...

rubber duckey

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Lime-Light

I should clarify... from a sales perspective, it failed to compete with most of its competitors. Technologically it was a very successful car, but it didn't have the mass appeal of any other cars in it's segment. They're still making miata's, Z's, boxsters, and Z4s. Where as those cars could be viewed as friendly enough to use every day, the S2000 was probably viewed more as a toy (every car review likened it to "the closest thing to riding a motorcycle") so the recession hit and buyers went elsewhere. It was a circumstantial failure as much as anything else. In 1999 Honda was building basically nothing but FWD practical cars and what do you know, that's what they're back to doing - minus the upcoming NSX which, lets face it, we all know will also be a sales failure; the original NSX hardly sold.

EDIT: Anyway back to the actual topic, the F20 to me is an entertaing power plant and engineering wise is pretty cool. What it lacks is usability and outright power, despite being so high-strung I was never impressed with the speed of it. If you have an S2k, you can do FI to make up for its shortcomings, if you have a Miata, you're still going to have to make up for those shortcomings after you do all the work of swapping it. I'm not saying no one should do it, by all means its cool to have something unique and to overcome the challenge of putting something where it was never intended to go (did that myself). But the F20 just isn't an inherently desirable engine to me.

wajalama

Judging from your previous post, you were talking about the performance of the F series engine.

We're not talking about sales figures, we're talking about the potential of the F20C/F22C swap into a Miata used for racing. The S2000 also did very, very well in motorsports and the engine itself is a very good platform for tuning. I like the BP-ZE for what it is, but in your case, a turbo F20C > turbo BP.

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Lime-Light

Well, speaking directly to F20's fault in it, it was a failed expiriment in that the engine design limited the car's appeal.

As far as for use in a race car...well, no one besides you just now has yet mentioned that in this thread, so that's not at all what I'm talking about. I think it would be quite well suited for racing, so we're in agreement there...

BobMunob

I say geta spridget and do the swap. Super cheap and a helluva lot lighter than a mazda. Then again I was looking at a rover v8 to swap in a Spridget the other day...