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Old 10-08-2012, 07:58 PM   #481 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

Only one way to find out.
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Old 10-08-2012, 11:48 PM   #482 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

1vicissitude - I definitely have seen the same trend in fender vents as you. My inspiration for this was actually the RX-7 GTO (worth looking up if you dot know of it -sexy) but when I went to apply this concept to the Miata I noticed some differences with this car from other "sports cars" that required a slightly different approach, which led me to choose to cut the vent higher than the top of the wheel line:

On sports cars like an S2k, RX-7, etc, if you look at the side profile, you'll see there is a very small distance between the top of the front wheel arch and the top of the fender. This means that a straight horizontal cut from the top of the wheel arch to the back of the fender, you're effectively venting a good 80-90% of the fender's height. However, the Miata has a much larger distance here - the wheel arch doesn't reach as closely to the top of the fender. So, when I got under the car and started looking at how high I wanted to cut (I was originally planning on doing what you were talking about - a straight cut back), I could see rat doing so would still leave a significant pocket in the top of the fender that wouldn't get vented, and an area like that where high pressure and turbulence can develop is exactly what I was setting out to eliminate as much as possible.

There may indeed be some fall-off of air going over the fender, but the reason I kept the full top section of the wheel well arch was so that air going over wouldn't just spill down into the wheel well. I think if it does spill down, it will be behind the wheel, along the side of the car moving toward the door - which is perfectly ok. Also, air falling off from a sharp edge is actually pretty good aerodynamically, so any fall-over that come over the top of the fender down to the rear vent section will probably not have adverse effects.

Those were my thoughts on that topic at least..

-Ryan
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:17 PM   #483 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

Finished the fender on the other side of the car today. The pics on the previous page of the fender cut were actually just after I had finished that side and hadn't even started on the other side yet. Frickin custom stuff takes mucho time. Probably 9 hours today, but with lunch, chatting with friends, etc. mixed in.

For the passenger side, the donor fender was an old fender from Sonny's car Monty - I'm pretty sure this is the one that was on the car when he had the race incident that required him to replace a bunch of body panels and repaint the car. So now some of Monty lives on my car haha. So since I was copying what I had done on the other side, I got a picture of the amount of the fender that I used for the rear section:



And when Sean stopped by to drop off more parts for his motor swap that we are doing this weekend, and we were sitting by my car chatting, I decided to man up and do the splitter test:



-Ryan
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:38 AM   #484 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

Looks familiar lol

(from Charlie's build)
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Old 10-13-2012, 10:12 AM   #485 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

Haha yessss! By the way, properly good looking car you've got there!

-Ryan
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:52 AM   #486 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

Ryan that's Charlie's car, not the person who posted it
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:34 PM   #487 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

yes, my car is far from being this nice, but your cars are quite alike

Have you checked his build yet ?
charlie's na6
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:00 PM   #488 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

Thumbs up for unintentional duplicate pictures
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:19 PM   #489 (permalink)
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Finished the fender on the other side of the car today. The pics on the previous page of the fender cut were actually just after I had finished that side and hadn't even started on the other side yet. Frickin custom stuff takes mucho time. Probably 9 hours today, but with lunch, chatting with friends, etc. mixed in.

For the passenger side, the donor fender was an old fender from Sonny's car Monty - I'm pretty sure this is the one that was on the car when he had the race incident that required him to replace a bunch of body panels and repaint the car. So now some of Monty lives on my car haha. So since I was copying what I had done on the other side, I got a picture of the amount of the fender that I used for the rear section:



And when Sean stopped by to drop off more parts for his motor swap that we are doing this weekend, and we were sitting by my car chatting, I decided to man up and do the splitter test:



-Ryan
Lol you stand on your splitter Like A Boss! lol
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:22 PM   #490 (permalink)
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Are the pass and charlie related? Haha
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:26 PM   #491 (permalink)
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Also, air falling off from a sharp edge is actually pretty good aerodynamically, so any fall-over that come over the top of the fender down to the rear vent section will probably not have adverse effects.

-Ryan
I've read the same, the drop off seems to help speed up flow, lowering psi, etc.

I had something similar in mind since I saw this pic a while back.

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Old 10-14-2012, 02:07 AM   #492 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

Aha so that's Charlie! Ok it all makes sense now. If I put my all black Sportmaxes on then he and I match even more lol.

Greeenteee - there's a lot of sexy going on in that pic. I was actually thinking about ways to get some color in the rear section of the fender and I like that a lot with the strip of white along the arch. I might do something similar. I hadn't seen this fender before. Did some googling, looks like I did something reallly similar - which I find to be awesome!



The boys at BMW and I were thinking along the same lines
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Last edited by ThePass; 10-14-2012 at 09:35 PM.
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Old 10-14-2012, 03:22 AM   #493 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

Nice build so far. I wish I was like you thin kids, 150lbs and able to stand on your splitter!
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:39 PM   #494 (permalink)
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Nice build so far. I wish I was like you thin kids, 150lbs and able to stand on your splitter!
159.5 on the scale this morning. 40 lbs less than a couple years ago! Gotta save weight everywhere I can.

Threw the sportmaxes back on - there's an autocross in a couple weeks and I want my RS-3's to last for the Miata Challenge event in November so I'm going to run my old-as-the-dinosaurs Azenis 615's for the autocross.

I also did a little red vinyl work on the fender to add some color on the black portion, an idea I got from the BMW pic greeenteee posted. Haven't snapped a picture yet though.

-Ryan
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:55 PM   #495 (permalink)
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omg this thread is so sweet

using this as my phone's background lol

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Old 10-15-2012, 12:18 AM   #496 (permalink)
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Finished the fender on the other side of the car today. The pics on the previous page of the fender cut were actually just after I had finished that side and hadn't even started on the other side yet. Frickin custom stuff takes mucho time. Probably 9 hours today, but with lunch, chatting with friends, etc. mixed in.

For the passenger side, the donor fender was an old fender from Sonny's car Monty - I'm pretty sure this is the one that was on the car when he had the race incident that required him to replace a bunch of body panels and repaint the car. So now some of Monty lives on my car haha. So since I was copying what I had done on the other side, I got a picture of the amount of the fender that I used for the rear section:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...ontyfender.jpg

And when Sean stopped by to drop off more parts for his motor swap that we are doing this weekend, and we were sitting by my car chatting, I decided to man up and do the splitter test:

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w...f/standing.jpg

-Ryan
SWEET. Monty lives on!

Impressions on the DGR's?

They seem to work decently, but the valving leaves something to be desired, IMO.
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Old 10-15-2012, 12:29 AM   #497 (permalink)
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I also did a little red vinyl work on the fender to add some color on the black portion, an idea I got from the BMW pic greeenteee posted. Haven't snapped a picture yet though.

-Ryan
Was looking again at the BMW pics you and I posted-- a small detail I noticed is a gurney flap on the trailing edge! On your rendition, it wouldn't be exactly on a horizontal plane but i think it would improve airflow escaping from the wheel well.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:16 AM   #498 (permalink)
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SWEET. Monty lives on!

Impressions on the DGR's?

They seem to work decently, but the valving leaves something to be desired, IMO.
I like them - but then again I was coming from a seriously under-sprung setup prior to that. For me, it's like greeenteee's sig - "Spend your cash on seat-time until you are faster than the car" They do everything I feel like I need from them, so I just focus on driving as fast as I can with what they offer me. Then again, I come from a perspective of having never driven on the "hot" coilovers (XIDA, FCM, etc.) so maybe I would have a religious experience if I experienced those haha. But, they handle surface irregularities pretty well - a lot of guys were complaining about the bumpiness out at Buttonwillow during the last event, and I wasn't having any issues with that - I felt the bumps where they were talking about, but they didn't have any relevance to what I was doing, upset the car, effect traction, etc. Also, they do a great job of settling quickly and inspiring confidence when bouncing over a high berm


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Was looking again at the BMW pics you and I posted-- a small detail I noticed is a gurney flap on the trailing edge! On your rendition, it wouldn't be exactly on a horizontal plane but i think it would improve airflow escaping from the wheel well.
Hey well look at that! Very interesting. I'm going to be working a lot the next few days but I might try and do something similar to this around the end of the week when I have time to work on the car again.

-Ryan
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Old 10-15-2012, 04:31 AM   #499 (permalink)
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Looks functional... Sweet!
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:17 PM   #500 (permalink)
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One difference I see in the design between bmw and yours Ryan is that your cut is a lot higher than theirs.
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Old 10-15-2012, 03:35 PM   #501 (permalink)
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awesome build!!!! subscribed
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Old 10-16-2012, 10:57 PM   #502 (permalink)
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Been brainstorming a lot about the plans for this winter. There is another MC event in November, and I've got the fenders done and will probably do some more aero tweaks before that. Then I'll have probably 2 months before the next event, so planning is beginning..

Here's what's basically on my mental dry-erase board:

Front aero improvements
- improve bumper aero, cut weight from front bumper
- new splitter w/ more surface area in front of bumper, improved aero shape
- modify canards for new splitter
- front brake inlets in bumper
- improve hood's heat extraction
- improve intake's air supply and vent through hood / box in the intake to keep heat out
- Version 2.0 splitter struts (50% aluminum - lighter)

Middle aero improvements
- Version 2.0 front fender vents (done)
- new side skirt design - lighter weight, improved aero
- mid-body undertray

Rear aero improvements
- shorten spoiler or lower spoiler angle (less drag)
- Optimize diffuser angle
- vent rear wheel wells
- seal diffuser to the rest of the car (lotus dimensions are slightly off from miata's, so it's not "sealed")
- No rear bumper for less weight - "fix" the aero downside to this w/ redisigned diffuser mounts
- Version 2.0 diffuser and spoiler struts (50% aluminum - lighter)

Other ideas
- Front brake ducting
- Improve intercooler/radiator/oil cooler efficiency
- Go through car and look for areas with unecessary weight / cut weight out
- Cut weight from rear trunk lid (should be ~6-7 lbs to easily pull there)
- PAINT THE CAR - daunting task but I really want to make this happen. It doesn't make the car faster though and paint will be $350 so it's not the top priority

-Ryan
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Old 10-17-2012, 01:53 PM   #503 (permalink)
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Ryan, are you still running xp 10's in the front, and rs4's in the rear for brakes?
Awesome ideas. I want to see these implemented!
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Old 10-17-2012, 02:16 PM   #504 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

Ryan, I'd be glad to help if you want to bounce around ideas and pick at each other's brains
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Old 10-19-2012, 09:59 AM   #505 (permalink)
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Ryan, are you still running xp 10's in the front, and rs4's in the rear for brakes?
Awesome ideas. I want to see these implemented!
XP10 front, R4 rear (big difference from RS4)

It's not optimal- two different manufacturer's pads are going to have different bite and release characteristics over different heat ranges. I ended up with this when I realized that I had ordered the wrong size XP10 rears. However, overall I am pretty happy with how this setup feels. Of course, I plan to do Carbos all around when I run out of pad.

Probably the place where the odd pad setup is noticeable is in the release - the Carbos have more flex and a smoother/more predictable release, whereas the R4 is a bit more of an on/of switch when you begin to reduce brake pedal pressure. So when I am going hard into a braking zone and then begin to lift off the pedal but want to keep a little braking while turning in to do some trail braking, I have to be careful because the rears will be biting harder than the fronts at that point because they haven't released as much. But this is something that I can know in my head and drive accordingly for.

-Ryan
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Old 10-20-2012, 01:50 AM   #506 (permalink)
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love the work and functionality of this!
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Old 10-20-2012, 02:39 AM   #507 (permalink)
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Ryan, I'd be glad to help if you want to bounce around ideas and pick at each other's brains
Hey man, I love aero/track discussion - any ideas you've got, thoughts about stuff I've done, ideas of how to improve something, etc. throw them up!

BTW, when do you plan to have the mid-body flat bottom done that you plan to sell? Really interested to see how that turns out!

-Ryan
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Old 10-20-2012, 10:47 AM   #508 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

After my splitter mounting kits are on the market, I'll tackle the the mid body undertray and sideskirts next. You'll be in for a surprise, it's not entirely flat bottomed! On another note, I was thinking about the rear bumper aero/venting the rear wheels, and I'm wondering how far in the rear bumper sides can be pushed in....kinda like this
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Old 10-21-2012, 10:09 PM   #509 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

I have to give a huge thanks to Moti for the tip about where to look for aluminum. A few of the aero projects coming up needed aluminum sheet to make parts from and also flat bar and L bar to make brackets from, and I was dreading the eventual cost of the aluminum (if you've ever bought some from Home Depot, etc you know what I mean).

Then Moti tells me to look up Industrial Metal Supply and ohhhhh my - it's a DIYer / fabricator's candy store. I went in needing just a small sheet of aluminum and some L shaped bar... here's what I left with:



2'x4' sheets of two different thicknesses of 5052 aluminum, 12' of 1/8" flat bar, 12' of 1/16" L bar (good for gurney flats methinks), two 8' lengths of different 1/8" L shaped bar, etc.

Do I need all this? No way.
But, now when I'm making something on the car, and I need to make a bracket, I don't have to put everything on hold, drive to the hardware store, pick out what I need, bend over and take it because they charge easily double to triple compared to IMS, and drive home.
Now I just walk over to this stuff, pick whatever I need, and cut it up.

I also treated myself to a new unibit and picked up some weld-nuts and stainless allens for one project:



Quote:
Originally Posted by hnguyen037 View Post
On another note, I was thinking about the rear bumper aero/venting the rear wheels, and I'm wondering how far in the rear bumper sides can be pushed in....kinda like this
Oooh pretty! haha.

The rear of the car is what I am working on right now. Bumper is off, I'm thinking the diffuser is going to need to be cut in half and have a center section added to widen it.. I have been looking at how much of the rear fender can be vented today. The passenger side is great, I could vent nearly the whole width of the tire, but the stupid driver's side has a low section of the trunk which extends down and totally ruins this. Here's some pics.

I'm tossing between option 1: figure out how much I can vent from the left side then mimick that on the right
Or, option 2: cut that section of the trunk out on the left side so I have as much room there as I do on the passenger side, vent the whole tire's width on both sides, rivet in a sheet of aluminum to seal off the trunk where I chopped a section out...



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Old 10-22-2012, 12:27 AM   #510 (permalink)
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Default Re: My NA becomes a track car (Build thread)

Just came in from the garage. I'm mostly finished up with my new sideskirts and I am in the mock-up stage of some additions to the rear spoiler..

I looked more at the rear of the car with the bumper off and what strikes me about the Porsche pic hnguyen037 posted is that most of the cars we see radical rear fender venting on have insanely widebody additions to the cars. This means the 'radical' fender vent doesn't have to encroach on much if any of the factory tub - because the whole vent is outwards of it.

I'm adding an option 3 to my above two fender vent options: Vent as much as possible on each side, which will mean pass. side gets a bit more vented - I don't have to cut the tub (Miata Challenge doesn't allow it), and I don't have to compromise on the pass. side and vent less than I could just so it matches the driver's side.

-Ryan
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