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Topic Review (Newest First)
Today 09:13 AM
Mobius
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Would not track my car without a base set of WOT pulls tune on the dyno, for several reasons:

I would want to verify AFR is good through the range.

HP doesn't bend rods. Torque bends rods. I would want to see what my torque map looks like and keep it under 200 ft/lbs everywhere.

As usual this is being way over thought to the nth degree.

A) get at least a base tune to verify the above are safe, regardless of what you do

B) If you open a healthy engine for any reason, make it survive. ARP studs, race bearings, rods, pistons, oil pump, damper. Throttle body. An engine from tse is a good idea.


Stock pistons ... much easier to melt or break. Your tune has no margin of error in it for detonation. I kept stock pistons, and in hindsight should have bit the bullet and spent the money. So I will be super careful with tuning once the turbo is in.
Today 08:48 AM
aidandj Buys $2000 turbo. Toast it reusing $100 bearings.
Today 08:35 AM
notbenh
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Are bearings that expensive? I thought that a set was like $100 but I could be mistaken. Seems what I'd you are going through the hassle of opening up the engine to replace rods then why not replace all the other cheap wear parts while you have the thing open?
Today 01:56 AM
aidandj Don't do that. Buy bearings.
Today 01:46 AM
farpolemiddle
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
But you need new bearings. Race bearings or stock?

While your in there do you do ARP head studs?

What about a new oil pump? There's another 400.

If you're doing that, why not just spend the $500 on pistons.

You see where it goes...
I am going straight Pat style on this. Literally bare minimum to get it going. Rods and rings. Now if I get this open and just everything is trashed I will reconsider.
Today 12:40 AM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Depends on peak torque and cylinder pressures. Is it a 2554 or 2560
Today 12:28 AM
curly
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Yes but he said 230 too, which is right where you'll start to bend rods if you track it for a season or two.
Today 12:26 AM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
PLEASE remember that tuning WOT for a track car is hugely different than what you get for $700 at a reputable shop with a decent tuner. If you've spent only an hour on the dyno, and your car has starts every time at any temperature exactly like stock, AC and PS idle up function exactly like stock, and throttle response is exactly like stock (to name a few), than you've either spent $700 for a professional tune, or MANY hours on your tune. GUESS WHAT! Time is money, unless you've now spent less than ~7 hours on your tune, you can never say than $700 is too much.

Which is why I think he should stick with FM. They offer to do the e-tune stuff which is fine for almost all the things you listed. Do some WOT pulls on the dyno to confirm everything

Kris will give you a great tune, but it's always good to start with a good candidate. Check compression and leak down, and if they're good, all you're really worried about is leaks. If those numbers are adequate, the same tune will transfer over easily enough to a new engine later.

Agree with leakdown and comp test

Just keep in mind we bent rods at 230hp after a season of racing, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you've never ran more than 160hp on your setup. Steven plans on tracking and autocrossing (I'm hoping) fairly aggressively. The limits start to come down in those situations.

Agree. Which is why I said 200hp is safe. Plenty of people have run it for years on a stock motor, if not more.
replied
Today 12:22 AM
curly
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechE View Post
Cool. I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for whether it makes sense to have a fresh motor for a tune or not. $700 on a good tune is a lot to throw at a old motor. If a good rebuild was $500, its a no-brainer. If it's $1,000, its tempting. More than that and its harder to justify and I would just run the old one.
No offense, but if you weren't up to replacing your turbo, just keep in mind that removing your current engine and replacing it with another will cost close to $1000 at a decent shop. That's way before any upgrades, or even a $600 junkyard engine core.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
$700 is a lot for a tune. learn to tune yourself and spend $60 for an hour on the dyno.
PLEASE remember that tuning WOT for a track car is hugely different than what you get for $700 at a reputable shop with a decent tuner. If you've spent only an hour on the dyno, and your car has starts every time at any temperature exactly like stock, AC and PS idle up function exactly like stock, and throttle response is exactly like stock (to name a few), than you've either spent $700 for a professional tune, or MANY hours on your tune. GUESS WHAT! Time is money, unless you've now spent less than ~7 hours on your tune, you can never say than $700 is too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechE View Post
That's the price from KO Racing. I could justify it on a fresh motor, but its really hard for my existing motor.
Kris will give you a great tune, but it's always good to start with a good candidate. Check compression and leak down, and if they're good, all you're really worried about is leaks. If those numbers are adequate, the same tune will transfer over easily enough to a new engine later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
There really is no reason to build a motor for 200hp imo.
Just keep in mind we bent rods at 230hp after a season of racing, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you've never ran more than 160hp on your setup. Steven plans on tracking and autocrossing (I'm hoping) fairly aggressively. The limits start to come down in those situations.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MechE View Post
There are no known issues with the sensors... But you really ought to check that they are accurate/calibrated before attempting to tune, right? I haven't looked into what that entails just yet, but that is the next step with FM.
You'll want to do a free air calibration with the wideband and double check TPS and IAC calibration, as many of the maps are based off that.

Just keep in mind through all of this that the #1 priority when going to the dyno is that everything is proven functional. All inputs and outputs should be "perfect". So no misfires, over heating issues, "oh that just needs to be plugged in" bullshit, etc.
Yesterday 11:37 PM
MechE
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Cool, thanks Aidan. Some things to think about...
Yesterday 11:28 PM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

up to you. your engine has a lot of life left in it. More with a tune, possibly less without.
Yesterday 11:27 PM
MechE
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
You could do it for under $1k if you want.

What is wrong with the sensors and why aren't they calibrated?

A 200hp tune is really easy. Is fuel around 11.5?

Add some timing, did it make power? if not go back.

Did it make 200hp? if not add boost.

There really is no reason to build a motor for 200hp imo.
There are no known issues with the sensors... But you really ought to check that they are accurate/calibrated before attempting to tune, right? I haven't looked into what that entails just yet, but that is the next step with FM.

If I'm not putting any significant money into a tune, then I'm not really motivated to have a fresh motor. I'm coupling the two things...
Yesterday 11:21 PM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

More power more bearing?

Idk, they aren't much more than standard bearings...you aren't reusing bearings are you...?

Imo there are 2 options I would consider.

$500 no machine shop rods only build.

Full out forged build. $3k-$5k

My spreadsheet

Yesterday 11:17 PM
MechE
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
But you need new bearings. Race bearings or stock?

While your in there do you do ARP head studs?

What about a new oil pump? There's another 400.

If you're doing that, why not just spend the $500 on pistons.

You see where it goes...
Haha. I do indeed. I have pretty good self control when it comes to feature/mod creep though. Pistons are an easy no. Oil pump would be based on recommendations... ARP head studs sound excessive for my target, and what are race bearings going to do for me? Haha.
Yesterday 11:16 PM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

You could do it for under $1k if you want.

What is wrong with the sensors and why aren't they calibrated?

A 200hp tune is really easy. Is fuel around 11.5?

Add some timing, did it make power? if not go back.

Did it make 200hp? if not add boost.

There really is no reason to build a motor for 200hp imo.
Yesterday 11:14 PM
MechE
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
yeah but you blow an engine you can lose a turbo pretty easily.

You might be able to pull of a $1000 build. You end up skipping steps though.

$700 is a lot for a tune. learn to tune yourself and spend $60 for an hour on the dyno.
That's the price from KO Racing. I could justify it on a fresh motor, but its really hard for my existing motor.

What steps would be skipped? How much more is the same build done right?

I have lifetime support and e-tunes from Flyin Miata. Running a base map from them now... A better tune than what the car came with. I could have them do the whole e-tune thing after re-calibrating the sensors, and then perhaps finalize the e-tune from a $60/hr dyno? Idk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by farpolemiddle View Post
I am getting ready to do a rods only myself here soon. I am going to pay a machine shop to hone the block and fix any issues with the head and that is it. New rods and rings and putting back together. Ultimate goal will be to find a VVT engine and do it right for a bunch of money.
What ballpark figure have you come up with for that?
Yesterday 11:07 PM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

But you need new bearings. Race bearings or stock?

While your in there do you do ARP head studs?

What about a new oil pump? There's another 400.

If you're doing that, why not just spend the $500 on pistons.

You see where it goes...
Yesterday 11:04 PM
farpolemiddle
Re: Official PDX Lounge

I am getting ready to do a rods only myself here soon. I am going to pay a machine shop to hone the block and fix any issues with the head and that is it. New rods and rings and putting back together. Ultimate goal will be to find a VVT engine and do it right for a bunch of money.
Yesterday 11:00 PM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

yeah but you blow an engine you can lose a turbo pretty easily.

You might be able to pull of a $1000 build. You end up skipping steps though.

$700 is a lot for a tune. learn to tune yourself and spend $60 for an hour on the dyno.
Yesterday 10:58 PM
stormin'norman
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Crank the bewst. It's a $600 engine.
Yesterday 10:58 PM
MechE
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Cool. I'm mostly just trying to get a feel for whether it makes sense to have a fresh motor for a tune or not. $700 on a good tune is a lot to throw at a old motor. If a good rebuild was $500, its a no-brainer. If it's $1,000, its tempting. More than that and its harder to justify and I would just run the old one.

My dad keeps pushing to put in a fresh motor and start with a clean slate... I'm trying to get him to co-drive and help fund the build for next year.
Yesterday 10:49 PM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

A bad/no tune is worse for the health of your motor than not having rods.

I personally wouldn't track a turbo car without a dyno tune. Just no idea what the car is doing.
Yesterday 10:46 PM
stormin'norman
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Yeah I would probably turn up the boost for one lap wonder performance and just enjoy it till it goes Unless something is wrong with it currently.
Yesterday 10:43 PM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

200whp will be fine on a stock motor. All day long. No need to build.

If you want you can do a rods only build for pretty cheap.

Like I said. I'm at $2600, and thats with some at cost parts, ebay rods, and a lot of deal hunting.

But it's also a 450whp+ motor.
Yesterday 10:41 PM
MechE
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormin'norman View Post
Need more parameters.

Are you performing labor? Will you add any additional "safety mods" besides rods? Costs could be anywhere from 3-15 depending on what boxes you check.
I'm fairly uneducated for what "safety mods" are needed for a 230hp 1.8L Miata motor. The only internal mod I remember from my conversation with Josh many months ago was rods...

In short, all I want is a reliable 200ish WHP, which is what I'm making now. For this scenario, I would perform all the labor, and have a shop machine the block.

Quote:
Originally Posted by notbenh View Post
Aidan's MT build had a good price breakdown for stuff I think it was late last week?
I'll have to check that out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
I have a big spreadsheet, with lots of different costs.

You are looking at anywhere from $500 for rods+dingleberry hone. Anywhere up to $20k. For a crazy stroker giant build.

The TSE built motor for $3.5k is a good deal IMO.
Not aiming for anything crazy. I want the same power, just perform necessary mods to make it handle the power well and rebuild it "right."
Yesterday 04:27 PM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

To give you an idea I'm right at $2694 for my engine. And that includes a lot of DIY stuff and some good deals I have.
Yesterday 04:26 PM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Thats what it is lol.

Yesterday 04:25 PM
stormin'norman
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Dingleberry hone. Ded.

That's the secret to my speed.
Yesterday 04:23 PM
aidandj
Re: Official PDX Lounge

I have a big spreadsheet, with lots of different costs.

You are looking at anywhere from $500 for rods+dingleberry hone. Anywhere up to $20k. For a crazy stroker giant build.

The TSE built motor for $3.5k is a good deal IMO.
Yesterday 04:20 PM
notbenh
Re: Official PDX Lounge

Aidan's MT build had a good price breakdown for stuff I think it was late last week?
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